Can't seem to stop his "bland diet" nightmare!

[Kim Raab]

Ernie came to us with minor stomach issues at 3 months old. He was on Taste of the Wild Bison all ages food. He would faithfully throw up every morning until I realized that he needed to eat a small serving right before bed. Just when I thought I had that situation fixed, he got very sick and started vomiting with diarrhea about 1 hour after he ate. The vet thought it was an obstruction and after about 1 week of torment and $1000 later, we changed his food to Fromm's Puppy Gold. He did well on that up until about 5 weeks ago at which time he was having consistent "pudding" like stools which then turned into diarrhea. Stool samples ruled out parasites/worms, and the vet suggested that it was a possible food allergy or too much protein in the puppy food. We were told to put Ernie on a diet of boiled hamburger and white rice until his stools firmed up and then begin an adult lamb and rice kibble. After about 5 days of the bland diet we began California Natural Lamb and Rice food at about at total  of 1/2 cup per day mixed in with his burger and rice. Two days into it he began chewing on his paws like a crazy puppy. We stopped that and tried California Natural Chicken and Rice and had the same outcome. The nutritionist at the pet store recommended raw as the next step feeling that we wouldn't need to ease him onto it being that he was used to his boiled beef.  We found that the food would stick with him for about 4-5 hours tops and he would throw up bile. Back to the bland diet and another type of kibble-Orijen Adult Dog Food. After about 3 days of 1/2 cup per day mixed with bland diet he ended up with pudding like stool again and was up every hour on the hour that night. We are currently on only boiled hamburger and rice again and his stool is formed and firm. I added a Kelp supplement to his food along with Prozyme since I am very concerned about his growth an development being only 8 months old and all is well. He desperately wants kibble but I just don't know where to go from here anymore. I have over-evaluated this and would love any suggestions or input from those of you that may have experienced similar problems. My vet has thrown his hands up in the air and said it's just a matter of trial and error at this point. Can my dog really survive and get all of the nutrients that he needs out of this boiled hamburger and rice? UGGGGGHHHHH! Poor Ernie just wants to eat like the rest of his friends!

[Heather & Jake]

Oh I feel your pain... our situation is one of the links Karen sent to you.  I agree with her advice, and you may want to try the Honest Kitchen.  I did want to ask... If while you had him on raw and he was throwing up bile 4-5 hours later... was it just bile and no food at all?  This usually means the stomach is empty.  Raw food passes through the system much quicker than kibble and it could be he just needs more frequent meals on raw, especially since he was a puppy.  Jake had 3 meals a day until he was 7 months old.

It also sounds like you have tried quite a number of foods for relatively short periods of time... most puppies (especially with sensitive tummies) take awhile to adjust to new foods and need to be tried out longer than a few days. For Jake obviously waiting never worked out but I could rule out it just being a shock to his system and that's why it didn't work.  However, once we switched to HK it was an immediate difference and we did it cold turkey, I was shocked and very happy.  Since then we have experimented with more raw and he just keeps getting better and better... at 10.5 months he's having a growth spurt and catching up on his "stunted" puppy growth but he'll be just fine... I wouldn't worry about that too much, it will work out I'm sure :)  Good luck and keep us posted!!

[Kim Raab]

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions Karen!  I am all over Honest Kitchen as soon as I can get my hands on it.

 

To answer your question, when he was on the raw diet and throwing up it was all bile and no food. The crazy thing is that when we had our first problem at 3 months old that required several visits to the vet/emergency vet they took x-rays of his stomach and showed that despite his vomiting up bile only his stomach was completely full of food. I was very puzzled by that but his vet told me that this was normal. It just didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Anyway, because of Ernie's sensitive belly I have actually been feeding him smaller amounts of food 5 times per day as that seems to have been the remedy for his vomiting.

 

Yes, we have tried lots of different foods in a short period of time. It was our vet's suggestion that the "bland diet" be in place only until his stools firm up and get back to normal at which time I should add about 1/4 cup of kibble to his meals twice a day and allow him some time to adjust (even if causing oose stools). We never get past a couple of days before we are up at night every hour on the hour which makes me feel that it is giving him a stomach ache. I don't mind dealing with the pudding poop, but I do feel horrible for him when he's up all night.

That is the most frustrating part of this whole situation.

 

As you know all too well, I just can't wait for our puppy to feel good all of the time. I am very eager to get him started on Honest Kitchen and will keep you posted on our outcome. Thanks again for your input, your story gives us hope! :)

[Kim Raab]

Things are looking good Heather! It is only day one but it's already going so much better than day one on any of the kibbles or raw diet. No vomiting and relatively solid formed stools for the first time in a long time!  I did get a tidbit of helpful information from the vet's office where I purchased the Honest Kitchen that I thought I would pass on. They said that when feeding a raw diet it must be served warm (by adding hot water to thawed food) or at worst, room temperature. I was feeding it to Ernie frozen as they recommended where I bought it and the vet tech said that was probably the reason for his vomiting. I'm not sure how valid that information is but it makes sense to me. Anyway, I hope to be able to tell you that your suggestion was the solution to our problem yet in a few more days. Hopefully Ernie will be on the same track as Jake and feeling good! We are so excited about his progress! Thank you! :)

[Heather & Jake]

This is awesome!!! I'm so glad it's working and he is feeling better!!! :)  Now as for the temperature thing, all the HK foods say on the box to serve/prepare warm or at room temp so we've been doing that... where did you see serve frozen??  As for other raw meats I've never read anywhere that frozen is bad; in fact real raw feeders feed frozen quite frequently to get the dogs to chew longer (and freezing helps kill parasites in raw meats).  For Jake's extra raw goodies I usually feed them thawed out, but still cold from the fridge, with his warm Embark.

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

I feed raw but I dont warm it up, they seem happy with it straight from the fridge. I do feed Cooper her bones frozen, especially in the summer, mainly because its easier and less messy!

[Kim Raab]

Sorry for the confusion Heather...I was referring to the Northwest Naturals Raw food that I had tried previously, not Honest Kitchen. It came frozen in cubes and I was told to feed it to him frozen. Maybe it's ok for most dogs, just not the one's with sensitive stomachs? We have our appointment this morning for a nutritional consultation with the new Vet so I will be sure to ask for more info on this and let you know what she says. He's still eating his Honest Kitchen and doing really well. There have been a few times that he wouldn't finish his meal but I cut the serving size down and we're doing fine now. Ernie's a happy boy! :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'm so happy to hear Ernie's good news.  Honest Kitchen seems to be making a big difference for lots of our Doodles with tummy issues.

[Kim Raab]

Ok, for those of you following our discussion, here's the latest on Ernie. He's doing great! We saw our new vet on Tuedsay for a nutritional consultation. After reviewing his history to find that he is now on The Honest Kitchen Keen food and much improved (thanks to your suggestions Karen and Heather!), she couldn't say enough about how glad she was that I became a part of this Doodle Kisses group. She is a vet with a "holistic" approach which came from 20 years of practice and personal research. She's a huge believer in raw diets but understands that not everyone else is. That being said she felt that I could gain a lot from this site as we all know our dogs better than our vets do and sharing information is the best way to learn what works for our breeds. She mentioned that Standard Poodles are notiorious for having IBS which was a questions that I had asked my previous vet and responded no. Anyway, here's our game plan; I am keeping him on Keen but incorporating Natures Menu raw turkey only patties to it 4 times per day. I will be giving him Fresh is Best freeze dried turkey dog food for treats as I need something to get him through our training stage and kibble is no longer an option. I have also put him on probiotics rather than enzymes. Once his belly seems to be good for a long stretch I will start trying other meats and vegetables. Our recommended treat at that time will be duck necks. She suggested adding green beans to as many meals as possible because of the fiber (thanks Cyndi!) also. Eventually I will put him on Omega 3 oil too. While discussing his heartworm regime, I mentioned that he is very out of sorts (very mellow and extra snuggly and heavier breathing than usual) after taking his Heartgard. She feels that this was a reaction that justifies switching him to Interceptor instead and giving it to him seasonally rather than all year (any thoughts on that???). I noticed none of the previous symptoms when I gave it to him on Friday, so obviously something about the Heartgard bothered him. Also, she is not a fan of Frontline and suggested that I not use that either given his sensitivity to so many things (thoughts/experience on that would be appreciated too!).  I was concerned about that because of his constant scratching. She believes that once we get his eating under control and put him on the Omega 3 oil, the majority of the itching will disappear. I bath him about once a week because he's a dirty little monster, so she gave me Nature Rich Moisturizing  Mineral Soap for his bath. She gave me directions to add the soap to the water, soak a bath towel in it and drape over him massaging into his skin rather than applying the soap directly to his coat. I did use it the other day and coincidence or not, his scratching has subsided a bit. While we were on the topic of grooming, she looked in his ears and noticed some redness in one of them. She is not a believer in ear plucking either. That was very surprising to me given how crazy hairy those ears can be...I thought that was the cause of ear infections. She has always had a groomer linked with her practice and paid close attention to when her patients came in with ear infections. Originally she thought that it was just the water in their ears but found a greater connection to ear plucking. She said that I will be able to pull some of that hair out easily with my fingers and shouldn't worry about the rest. By doing that and using an ear cleaner (she recommended Ark Natuals Ears All Right) weekly on him we should be able to avoid infections. I'm going to give it a try and see what happens.

 

So that's it...a lengthy overview of our visit to Ernie's new vet. ;) Thanks again to all of you and your great suggestions and advice! I'm very optimistic that we are on the right track now! I'll keep you posted.

 

 

[Joy & Buddy]

Kim,

I just found this discussion tonight, so I am coming late to the table.  But I am so glad you found a holistic vet!  I have had a similar journey--loose stools, many different foods, etc,--and finally took Buddy for a consultation with a holistic vet (also with 30 years experience) last May.  She suggested a raw diet with vegies and other things added in and it was a nearly miraculous change.  He's done well on raw for several months now.  But I did want to tell you that I fed him Northwest Naturals a few times this summer, and each time, he seemed to have an almost allergic reaction to it: he scratched or vomited or just seemed out of sorts each time.  It took me awhile to connect the symptom to the food, as I think NW Naturals is a really good company.  But something in the food just didn't agree with him.  Also, I've always heard the recommendation to feed raw food cold, but not frozen.  I think the reason is that if it warms to room temperature, there is a chance of bacteria growing.  (I feed Primal, Bravo, and Darwin's, by the way, and I add vegies  to every meal, all raw & pulsed in a food processor, except any potato, which needs to be cooked.)

We moved to a new house and have been having some scratching and flea issues:  I think we're dealing with fleas left by a cat (and brought to the yard by raccoons and coyotes) and an allergy to something in the environment.  I was interested in your vet's take on Frontline--what does she recommend instead?  Buddy has been on Frontline Plus but it didn't seem to be helping with the flea issue (and he's never had fleas before).  It's coming up on the 1-month application time again; I need to use something as the fleas will be in the environment (although we've used many natural deterrents and they are helping) since we live in a warm area.  But I am just not sure if Frontline is the answer at the moment.

I hope Ernie is still doing well on Honest Kitchen and the other foods you are using!

[Kim Raab]

Hi Joy-

Thanks for your input. I'm glad to hear that you have had success working with a raw diet for Buddy! Sorry to hear about his scratching issues. Ernie's vet is a believer in natural remedies for fleas. I don't have the specifics on what to use but can inquire with her if you would like. Just let me know. I hope that Buddy stops itching very soon!

 

And thanks, Ernie is still doing great on his Honest Kitchen diet! :)

[Joy & Buddy]

Yes, Kim, I would love to know what your vet recommends for fleas.  We've used all natural remedies for house and yard (nematodes & diatomaceous earth) and they are helping.  My holistic vet recommends Vectra, which has permethrin in it!! Maybe that is also because we live in a warm climate and fleas are an issue year-round here. But I am hesitant to use it on Buddy.  

So glad to hear Ernie is thriving on HK!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Although the issue of flea preventatives is off-topic here, I feel compelled to comment.

Permethrin comes from chrysanthemums; most drugs that are known to be effective come from plants.

I can tell you from very unpleasant personal experience that there is no natural remedy that is truly effective against fleas, and that having a flea infestastion is a thousand times worse than any risk there might be from using a known preventative. A flea infestation can kill a dog., or give him a serious permanent skin allergy. Flea allergy dermatitis is the most common form of allergy in dogs, and it is incurable. Treatment is difficult.

With all due respect to those who believe in natural flea remedies, the fact that someone who uses "natural" remedies has not yet had a flea infestation means absolutely nothing. With my last dog, I used no flea preventative at all, natural or otherwise, and my dog lived 14 years without getting fleas. So by that, you could say that doing nothing works to prevent fleas.

But then she did get fleas, and in addition to it costing more than $3000 to get rid of them, she was subjected to far more dangerous chemicals than she would have been if I'd just used a preventative to begin with, and it shortened her life.

In all decisions regarding health, the risks must be weighed against the benefits.