Where do breeders get their dogs from?

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

I was just thinking about how breeders get their dogs.Not me but a lot of people especially pure bred breeders are against mixed breeds unless they are from a rescue then its okay to adopt one.So if breeders are only looking for the betterment of their purebred dogs and to only improve that particular breed.Why would they sell a breeding dog to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds? No reputable breeder of a pure bred dog that cares about their breed and improving upon that breed would ever sell breeding stock to a breeder that breeds mixed breeds.It makes sense to me.So where are these premium  labradoodle  breeders and goldendoodle breeders getting their quality stock from.Once again im confused.What am i missing here?Please keep an open mind these are not my opinions and is not a stab at the awesome LD and GD.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Now this is inspiring!

From the website:

"Sully has earned titles competing in Obedience, Rally Obedience and Agility and is now: UCD UGRACH6 URO2 ARCH Sully TG-N, CC-N, WV-N, NAC,CTL1, PD-1 CGC, TDIAOV.  Now retired from agility, last years trip to UKC Allstar Nationals and winning third place after just finishing chemo was amazing!"

To me, this is not about letters after a name, this is about the heart of a dog. And what a big heart Sully has.

 

 

 

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

This is inspiring! One of my new year's goals is to get Sophie in Agility. I think she will be a star - smart, quick, agile, and boy can she jump high. Winston on the other hand can't seem to get his paw out of the leash when it's wrapped around and sometimes needs me to lift him in the car. They are both just as special to me :o)

[Adina P]

I love Sully's story. He has an excellent trainer as a "Mom" and that's half the equation.  But one thing to remember is that we can't use any one doodle as an example of "Doodles" because they are a mix.  That's really important.  You can't even use any one labrador as an example of all labradors because not all labradors are bred to meet the same criteria. Sully doesn't prove that ALL doodles can do X, Y, or Z.  It shows that Sully and his owner worked their behinds off doing some really good stuff.  At the same time, poodles and retrievers are notoriously good obedience dogs..so it shouldn't be surprising that a doodle can excel in one or several dog sports =) Some will be far easier to train than others, but there is no breed that (as a whole) can not earn an obedience title.  ALL breeds are capable given the right training.  Maybe not all individual dogs, but certainly all breeds.  And doodles, given their breed combos...well they are a shoe in if only more people with doodles would actually go earn those titles.

[AndySharon BoomerShaynaMariner]

i just re-read my post - sorry for all the misspelled words - typing quicker than thinking.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I've been reading this discussion, and I'm thinking it all depends on what you want from your dog.  If I was really interested in pursuing an obedience or agility title for example, I would look for a puppy whose lineage had produced offspring that was proven in these areas.  I would want to know that my puppy had a better than average possibility of excelling, given that I would provide all the necessary training.  That might be more of a challenge with Doodles for a number of reasons, but mostly because of the limited number of generations to study.  If competing was "serious business" for me then my search for a puppy would be very directed, and titles on the parents and others in the line would be important to me.  That was certainly not the case with me.  Temperament was a very important consideration, and I always knew that I wanted a dog that could be trained for therapy work.  As I looked for breeders, I found one who did seem to focus on temperament.  Guinness's father was a Certified Therapy Dog....his mother was not.  Before deciding that Guinness was the right dog for us, we went to visit with the Breeder and meet the Mom.  She was sweet and calm and very friendly and engaging.  We had long conversations with this Breeder, and it became clear to me that her program was very geared to producing the type of dog we were looking for.  I was not disappointed.  Guinness was certified before his second birthday, and he is perfect for this "work"....plus he just loves it.  Health testing was also very important to me, and our Breeder was able to provide us with all of those records.  Murph is a different story, because he was a rescue.  I had no expectations for him...I just knew I wanted to give him a chance.  I do think we'll learn more and more about where his "talents" lie over time, but for now he's just my loving, goofy boy....who challenges me to become a better trainer.  I guess what I'm trying to say is I think it's important to understand what you want your dog to be and then look for a Breeder who is producing those types of dogs. 

[alison welch]

hi folks... i normally just read these discussions, because i have not joined doodle kisses...however i was reading this discussion with great interest... so now i've had to join.

 i am not a doodle owner or breeder, sorry if this violates terms of entry but wanted to give you some info on australian pedigrees as i am a stud breeder with Dogs Victoria...

Although my belief may offend some here, i understand it is my belief only and not every one will agree with it. I hope i will be able to explain myself well enough to be understood by you all. 

 I think there is a standard, and statement of ethics that is important for all breeders, whether purebred or hybrid. 

When you join Dogs Victoria for example, or perhaps the AKC in america, you sign a document that lists a group of rules and standards that are to be adhered to...as a breeder.  One of these rules is something along the lines of not allowing your dogs to be used to produce cross breeds usually meaning without the written consent of the association...  Now those labrador or poodle stud breeders who have willingly allowed their dogs to be used for this purpose have for what ever reason broken their signed word... so what does this lead me to think and question their ethics.. is it ok for them to choose which rules they will follow?... why would i now trust any of their subsequent statements or actions... if they didn't like the rule, then they shouldn't have signed up to it...To then be too scared to own up to the decision just means they know what they did was wrong, but they dont want to be held accountable for it... well we all know what happens when a breeder does not like to be held acccountable for her actions... 

As a stud breeder all of my puppies are eligible for registration, in fact all wil be registered but not all will be eligible for registered breeding... they are sold on a "limited registration" which means they are not to be bred... many of these puppies are enirely meeting the breed standard, some might even have been show quality, but they were not adopted by their new owners for that purpose.  Every puppy registered is given a unique registration number, which appears on their pedigree, which now also co-incides with their microchip number... no other dog can be given this number...Every dog in my puppies ancestry also has such a number, but without a copy of the pedigree you wont know it, even though you might know that your puppies grandmother was an australian champion.  If you have a hybrid puppy then none of these matings and subsequent litters will have been registered.  This is what i see as the bonus of a breed association and breed registry.... without registration i could say anybody was in the background of a puppy i was trying to sell, and the only proof the new owner would have is my word....

If i have already been a willing party to the lies told by another breeder, then what hope is there that my word is my bond....

 

Now i know that in the pure bred dog world there are breeders who are about as trustworthy as a rat in a feed bin....but at least someone other then themselves holds the breed ancestry records and database, and once the records are there they cant be changed without an investigation..., not just because "...some one else in ther family used their computer database, so send us back the wrong pedigree and i will send you out the proper one..."

Unfortuneately we live in a world where once money becomes involved, ethics and standards often go out the window. 

I know i would like to believe that i will always live up to the standards and ethics i am writing of, but often we all fall short...

best wishes to all for the new year

alison

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks for your input. Anyone who likes or is interested in doodles is welcome here. I understand your position and that of Dogs Victoria as you explain it. Unfortunately there would be no doodles if every breeder were to have the same pledge in one way or another. So some of the Australian breedings may not have been what they were said to be or should have been but they did result in these wonderful dogs for which I am grateful. I know a great deal more about all the goings on in Australia than I did when I purchased my dogs descended from Rutland/Tegan lines. I don't know what I would have done had I known ahead of time so in a sense ignorance was bliss because no matter what I love my two doodles.

[alison welch]

hi guys...

it would be harder for labradoodles to have come into being,... but not impossible... cross breeding sanctioned by the association has been done before in other breed registries... when the tabby gene was being brought into the Sacred Cat of Burma (Birman) comes to mind... though it was still going to be a birman in the end..... So when the cross breeding started in australia under the auspices of the Royal Guide Dogs and Wally Conran, it could have been sanctioned to produce an allergy friendly aide dog, either called a @####@@$# labrador, or a @@###@##@$@ poodle.

i am developing a great deal of respect for many of the labradoodle breeders who post here, they show a great deal more ethics and honesty then some breeders within my association, and are prepared to a lot more testing to prove their breeding lines health... it bodes well for such a "breed" to be recognised at some point...

alison

[F, Calla & Luca]

We do have many wonderful, ethical breeders and we are grateful.

[April Cliber]

This was just posted on a doodle breeders form and I thought it was interesting as it pertains to this discussion.  I know some are not a fans of English golden retrievers, but the same thing is going on with other golden breeders.

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=179154;article=1619...

[F, Calla & Luca]

Saw that and thought about this discussion. It's sad the politics of it all. Not much interest, huh : )

[Jacque Reynolds]

I wanted to address this basic question. I have reviewed the earlier responses and opinions and as a Doodle breeder I wanted to explain some of the misconceptions about breeding stock. Sorry, but this is long.

Supporters of pure breed dogs are often angry at Doodle breeders and this anger creates a defensive attitude from Doodle breeders. (I have fallen victim to it in these posts.)

You mention quality stock but I wonder what your defination of "quality stock" is? Is it a long pedigree registered with one of the respected kennel clubs? Is is DNA linking the dog to a particular line or is is okay to have papers only? Do you think that championship lines are the only proof of quality?

I am asking these questions because of my experience with the AKC, "reputable" Poodle breeders and falsifying records.

You see, when you get a dog, you get the breeder too. Your breeder may be "quality" or your breeder may be as crooked as they come. Believe me, papers are not always accurate. DNA is accurate. What I would love to see is a DNA match to prove that every registered dog is actually an offspring of the lines stated.

I bought a wonderful Poodle stud when I first started breeding. To this day, I have been so glad that I have him because he is the best dog I have ever owned and he has produced some excellent puppies. When I purchased this dog, the breeder (a Labradoodle breeder) said that he was from CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) and AKC lines, because the Poodle breeder gave her pedigrees.

After I had the dog for a few months, my breeder contacted me to say that the "reputable" Poodle breeder had given her the "wrong" papers and that we could not register my dog. Long story short, I researched the situation and found the (good) Poodle breeder who had sold the parent dogs to the "reputable" Poodle breeder. That person said that if I could get a DNA test to prove the sire, she could tell me the dam because that sire was killed in an accident and only had two litters, one brown and one black. My dog was brown. The (good) breeder had the sire's DNA registered with AKC. My stud's DNA matched. The breeder gave me an affidavit that stated who the true parents were. The testing was through AKC, the AKC verified parentage.

The AKC refused to correct the papers. Why? Because "reputable" breeder had to give her permission! Yep. She lied, the AKC knew she lied and they had DNA to prove it. Nothing was corrected.

So, you tell me, if this happens once...is it reasonable to believe that other pedigrees are falsified, or even mistaken? With the DNA available, why doesn't the AKC require DNA matching to prove lineage?

If this is so important to dog owners, why not strive to make it more accurate? Why not correct proven errors and sanction untruthful breeders?

The answer is simple. Money.

These kennel clubs are just that, clubs. They grow when they get memberships. Their loyalty is to their members.

Sure, they do some wonderful things and the idea is a good one. But to those, like Carol Brand, who put all of their "quality" trust into championship pedigrees I think that the clubs owe it to those people to at least strive for accuracy and honesty. Don't you?

This is a long way to say that when you buy a papered dog, you get paper. You hope it is accurate but in reality, is it? Who knows for sure?

I select my breeding dogs based on health, intelligence, temperament, and personality. Then I work on perfecting coats. It is important for me to know the lines but not to prove that my dogs are champions, I want to make sure that I am not breeding related dogs. Coefficient scores are based on the hope of reliable pedigrees. I don't believe you can fully rely on them.

Pedigrees are a guide. One of the many things that a good breeder takes into consideration. Pedigrees are very helpful to determine the health issues of a particular line of dogs. So, yes, I find the pedigree to be very important but not for proving championship or creating false security in the bloodline. Certainly not to claim that my dog is better than another because of the pedigree.

Once you realize that the papers can be false or wrong...it sort of shoots down the importance of papers and helps to focus on the actual dog and, most importantly, finding a breeder you can trust. Then, trust your breeder to do everything in his/her power to do the right thing, someone who takes their responsibility and commitment very seriously. Someone who will only breed the best parent dogs available. Trust; it is the most important thing to look for when you want to find a great dog...no matter the breed.