Feeding RAW

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Raw feeding our doodles is advocated by many people. There are some pros and cons in this...let's discuss it.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Hi all, I will just add here part of what I put in another food group discussion. The breeder my puppies came from fed the BARF diet, so I did a little research and talked to my vet about it. My vet is a gentle, easygoing, balanced view sort of person. He knows most of the alternatives in treatment and will give you the pros, cons, and costs of them. He gave one of our huskies 6 good quality years of life without surgery or radiation, when Thor developed a brain stem tumor. He also removed malignant breast tumors from our 11 year old Husky and gave her another 41/2 years of good quality life. I tell you this only so you know why I value his opinion above the letters behind his name. When I mentioned the BARF diet he nearly had a stroke, he actually raised his voice a little. He feels the risk to humans, particularly children, in the family far outweighs any possible benefits to the dog. Salmonella is usually not a problem to dogs, but it is excreted in their poop. It's pretty tough little bacteria and will remain on the surface after the poop is picked up unless a disinfectant is used every time. It will also remain on the surface where it was eaten and in the dogs mouth and on the fur around the mouth. Just too risky in his opinion. You can add that to the mix when you make your decision.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thanks for this information, Maryann; although it is anecdotal, it does have a lot of scientific fact behind it. Most of the studies have involved very small numbers; however, in an article by Ann Martin in a 2005 issue of Better Nutrition, she states that salmonella IS harmful to dogs, and that even wolves IN THE WILD occasionally die of salmonella. Toxoplasmosis, another disease caused by parasites in raw meat, is thought to be responsible for an increase in seizures disorders in dogs since the BARF diet caught on. Again, not wanting to be one-sided here, but these are serious considerations.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I copied this post by our member Doe Asombrado from the "allergy" section; it is a source she recommends for raw meats and bones.

I don't know if you're aware of the yahoo groups website called "Carnivore feeding Suppliers"? They are wholesale meat slaughterhouses that provider human and dog grade raw meats/bones at a discounted price. They are scattered all over the USA. I can get bones at $0.20 a lb and the basic grocery store and exotic meats at a discount ranging from $0.50-$2.00 a lb. My supplier is in California and does runs up and down I-5 from Sacramento to San diego. He only carries grain free, free-range, non hormone meat and poultry that range from: chicken, beef, pork, Elk, Venison, Llama, Emu, goat, green tripe, organ meats. The last run, I spent $54.00 for 53 lbs of meat, ground bone/meat, and bones. Thats almost a $1.00 a lb. It'll last me 1 month for a 70 lb dog! My supplier is Creston Valley Meats and my contact is Simon Caleb! Great guy with quality meat! Let me know if you have any questions.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Those of you who know me well on this sight already know Blake's issues. For those of you who don't know me, Blake suffers from IBS...I started out with Blake on a RAW diet....He did really well on it and loved it........Because a RAW diet requires certain protocols to insure it's "freshness" and prevent bacterial growth, feeding RAW with consistancy was a struggle for me...The longest that you can leave it undefrosted in a bowl is 30 minutes...After that you have to throw it out...Because Blake is so inconsistant with his "hunger" no matter how I try to keep him on a schedule, I was constantly throwing out quite a bit of it for that reason....It's not cheap to feed RAW....whether you buy BARF or RAW in packages or do it yourself, so throwing it away becomes an issue especially if you are on a budget...You can only defrost up to 4 days worth at a time which always made me nervous because keeping it refridgerated as opposed to frozen also compromises the food and increases the risk for bacterial growth....

Also,for the record I would like you all to know that there is a lot of propoganda out there regarding raw diets and anal gland health that is inconsistant..BARF and RAW would like us all to believe that a raw diet limits and in some cases eliminates the need for sac expression....The truth is that a raw diet can be quite hard on a dogs back end and in many cases the diet actually irritates the anal glands... I had to express Blake's sacs every week on RAW and they would literally be filled to capacity. He was doing the "butt scoot" on my Turkish rug daily.... At one point, my groomer actually asked me if he was on a raw diet because based on her experiences he had the classic gland expression presentation of a raw diet dog...I've since heard this complaint from many dog owners.....

[2m42srv7vi6sq]

We buy beef hearts, from our local butcher, that come from cattle that has been raised up here in the mountains on organic diets. We also buy chicken livers that come from his home-raised chickens. I give them raw, about 3 times a week, to supplement the TOTW.

With all the controversy about raw feeding and Cealeach's Atopy issue, I am seriously considering just dehydrating the hearts and livers and making them into treats.

Bella has done well on the raw supplementation. Whereas on BARF, she almost died on us from severe diarrhea, dizziness and vomiting.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Another thought is that maybe we shouldn't rely on ANY one method to feed our dogs. Balanced over time makes more sense to me than "Complete and balanced" at every meal, as dog food companies try to get you to believe. If someone is advocating getting back to a dogs "nature" wouldn't that then be not eating the same things day in and day out for years and years? A dog in the wild eats many different things. As Karen pointed out, dogs are omniverous, meaning they would eat animal, veggie, fruit, nuts, berres, etc. A raw only or a kibble only or an ONLY anything diet, does not make sense to me. I get nervous when someone tries to tell me it's their way or nothing. I believe EVERYTHING should be considered and included. It's like people eating only one thing their whole lives, it's absurd and people would never do that, why should a dog or cat?

[2lq2ez6wj0n5r]

As you will have seen from my previous post - I don't advocate a raw diet however I would like to make the following comments.

1. Having lived in a farming community all my life and worked as a veterinarian in the country for 25 years I know of thousands of dogs fed raw food and have not ever seen an outbreak of salmonellosis or even of a single positive diagnosis of salmonella. Farm dogs commonly eat raw meat in various stages of putrefaction. At the risk of sounding like a paranoid consiracy theorist I repeat that canine nutritional research has always looked at the risk of raw meat rather than any benefits.

2. Dogs fed bones have better dental health than dogs fed commercial dog food and (unfortunately because it creates so much controversy) bones should not be cooked as they will be less digestible and can splinter.
I know this just as well as Tom Lonsdale knows it, and every member of the veterinary profession in Australia with more than 10 years of clinical experience knows it. Again the research hasn't been done because there is no-one to fund it but objective observation can be relied on in this.
In the US fear of salmonellosis has led vets there to advise against raw bones - we don't do this in Australia (and as far as I am aware nor do vets in the UK or Europe) and our dogs and owners do not have a higher rate of salmonellosis than in the US. In fact this risk from raw meat feeding of dogs is never even aired in Australia. Many Australian vets, if not the majority, recommend feeding raw bones as a supplement to commercial diets.

It may be that the chews and special kibble can replace raw bones and maintain dental hygeine - and for people concerned about the risk of salmonella this may the way to go - to me it seems expensive and pointless

I have no vested interest in this issue other than concern for the dental health of my patients

I look forward to your response - don't hold back!

cheers
Kate

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Kate, I have a couple of questions; My current labradoodle, who was abandoned at a shelter at 14 mos and is now 4 years old, is a very picky, fussy eater who will not really eat bones at all, or even chew them very much. He has some fairly severe autoimmune problems (we are still waiting for the results of the latest blood work), and I sterilize big marrow bones in the microwave for a minute or two before cooling & giving them to him. This does not soften the bone at all. I put the softened marrow into his food bowl separately. He will chew at the bone as long as he can still taste the marrow, but once it's gone, it lies there and is never touched again. He has bones lying all over the house. I am concerned about his teeth, and wonder how I can get him to chew on SOMETHING. Any suggestions?

[2lq2ez6wj0n5r]

What do his teeth look like?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

They look okay, pretty white, there has been a little tartar which was easy to remove with just gauze, but my mini poodle went to her death at 16 years old with gleaming white, tartar free teeth, firmly anchored to bone, pink healthy gums, and I never brushed her teeth in her life! The vets were amazed. She was a major chewer of rawhides & bones...although I must confess that they were semi-cooked marrow bones, and they never broke, splintered, etc., but she was a small dog. So I know how important it is for them to chew. Jack won't chew on anything much.

[2lq2ez6wj0n5r]

It sounds as if you have found the perfect compromise between raw and cooked! Poodles usually have terrible teeth if they don't chew a lot - bigger dogs don't seem to have so much trouble but recently I have been doing a lot of surgery on greyhounds and lots of them have very ordinary diets and never see bones - they have the most awful teeth I've ever seen in large dogs - just as bad as the fussy maltese we see all the time.
Dogs do need to learn to chew - If Jack's teeth start to accumulate tartar and dental calculus then you'll need to either get his teeth cleaned or not feed him anything else except bones until he gives in and starts eating them.
I recommend rib bones because they are mostly cancellous bone - with lots of blood vessels and no marrow - they chew up nicely and you don't end up with large hollow bones left everywhere.
Chicken carcasses are great (SALMONELLA!!!! I hear you cry) and many people here feed them or chicken necks or wings.
Large lumps of raw (lightly cooked?) meat will do the job reasonably
Cheers
Kate

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, it isn't so much salmonella as it is Jack's immune system deficiencies. Depending on the time of year, he is often on medication which lowers his ability to fight off any infection. And those are the seasons when it would be feasible to put him out in the yard with it, because I don't want raw chicken on my carpets! The rib bone idea doesn't bother me as much, but I still need to wait for the blood work to come back to see what we're going to be doing med-wise in the future.
What this strange dog really loves best is any kind of fish or seafood, and eggs. He does get these things, cooked of course, but not much chewing opportunity there. Thanks for your advice.