Loose stools on TOTW Bison/Venison - 5month old dood

[Gena, Wookie and baby boy coming]

Help! Loose stools still....  This is my first posting for Huey,  is our 5 month old doodle.  He was eating Purina Puppy Chow when we adopted him from my aunt 6 weeks ago. (She couldnt keep him...too much for an older lady- bonus for us.... already have a 1yr old... new best friends)    We promptly switched him (transitioning, of course) to Blue Buffalo puppy (diarreah) , and eventually to TOTW Puppy Bison and Venison. He's had very soft stools (getting up 4-6 x per night.....from day one (which is why we moved from Blue to TOTW)   Our vet gave him  two rounds of Metronidazone,(even though nothing came back in the labs? ) which firmed things up very well and almost immediately, however, the first day he's off of it...we're back to getting up 5x a night for emergency outside trips. (always worse at night- daytime trips begin late afternoon and are not every hour)   Noone is enjoying these.   Our pet store specialist told us that the puppy formula is very close to the adult formula and after researching the ingredients and percentages, I agreed the differences are minimal, so we began feeding him the adult formula as that is what our 1 yr old doodle eats..and they both like it.... (easier and more economical to buy one bag at a time.. larger quantity)  I have been waiting to change foods again...  I just feel like it's too many changes..... but this is not working.

Has anyone else had a problem with the bison/venison combo and super soft -diareah...stools?    It's been long enough now that we need to make a change....  today I added some boiled white rice to it and perhaps that may work...( have tried the pumpkin (which always worked on Wookie, our older dood)  and no change)

Is the Salmon based TOTW easier for them to digest?  Any help would be appreciated...  we are all so tired and feeling bad for our baby boy....   I

Thanks much...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I know the labs came back negative, but I'd have them run again just to make sure, because an urgent need to go out several times a night really sounds like more than a digestive upset, it sounds like giardia to me. If the stools had been firm originally, and changed after the TOTW was introduced, I'd say look to the food, but since this has been going on from day one, it's unlikely that it's the food. The fact that the metronizadole helped points to a parasite and/or an overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine. I'd try plain nonfat unflavored yogurt along with the pumpkin, or possibly a good probiotic. Adding the rice to the kibble probably won't help much, rice is used in home cooked "bland" diets with boiled chicken or hamburger, but on it's own with kibble, there's nothing therapeutic about it.

If it is the food, and you want to try something else that might be easier on his digestive system, I'd go with a limited ingredient formula. TOTW is pretty complex nutritionally, lots of ingredients in there, and it's hard to pinpoint which one might be causing a problem, if any. But it probably wouldn't hurt to try a poultry or fish based formula and see if there's any difference. The problem with many of the LID formulas is that they either contain grains or their protein content is too low. You might look at Acana's new limited ingredient formulas, they contain steel-cut oats, or the Wellness Simple Solutions formulas with rice. Canidae's Pure line might be an option, too. Or you could give the TOTW one more shot but try the Wetlands or pacific Stream formula instead.

Another food option, but one that's going to be much more expensive, would be Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw. A lot of people whose dogs had loose poop issues had excellent results when they switched to Honest Kitchen's Embark.

But I would strongly suggest first bringing a stool sample in to the vet for another float test first, just to rule out giardia. It doesn't always show up in every specimen and can sometimes be hard to diagnose.

Oh, and what kind of treats is he getting?

[Gena, Wookie and baby boy coming]

Hi Karen and Jack -- thank yuo very much for your kind response.    I appreciate the input and I think you are correct about the rice..  ( I think I just was feeling desperate and wanted to feel like I'd been doing something to help... :(   I also agree that the urgency that this is creating may not be due to the food.  I can surely bring another sample to the vet tomorrow..  (there are plenty to pick from..  poor baby)   I think that's a good start...  I am concerned about giving him these medications though with no indication of parasites...  (although the fact that it helps, is interesting, now that you mention that)

     Our 1 year old has only ever been on a raw (frozen) diet and has had such success.... and we would keep him that way, however, having not planned on a 2nd dog....2 to feed now, staying on the raw is not an option... so we are transitioning to the kibble in the name of economics..  Just can't do it financially with both.    We have begun mixing Wookie's raw with the TOTW bison and i see no change in his stools yet... (whew!)  I am hoping he can tolerate it.   I appreciate all of your ideas and thoughts on different foods.. we'll start with the fecal test again before changing anything...  I will keep you posted.   He only gets a few treats a day...maybe 5-6 . they are very small.   I use the Buddy Buscuits - Peanut butter..  as I did with Wookie..  I don't think the amount he is getting could be causing this much trouble, but it's a thought...    Again thank you.... 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The thing about mixing the raw food with the kibble is that while the raw food may work better for the dog's digestion when fed alone, when mixing it with kibble, you negate any benefits that the raw food might be providing in terms of digestibility. The raw food is not in itself providing a medicinal or therapeutic benefit when added to another type of diet.

It's a shame that you can't use the raw diet with both dogs, but perhaps one of the dehydrated raw products might be more economical than the frozen raw. Wouldn't hurt to price it out and see.

Regrading treats, we find that sometimes it helps to stay with pure protein treats. I'm not familiar with the Buddy biscuits, but maybe something like Pure Bites, which is only freeze-dried protein, might be a better option.

Please keep us posted.

[Coco Chanel and Cheryl]

Coco had a really hard time with foods when she was a puppy! She could only handle Purina One chicken until she was over a year old. I tried Blue, raw, anything because of her tummy. She needed that formula because her stomach was not ready for those rich foods. Now she loves TOTW venison formula. New puppy might not be ready for such rich foods!! The Purina one was recommended by the vet.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Cheryl,

With all due respect to your vet, it's well-documented that veterinarians are not at all well-versed in nutrition; there is no required nutrition curriculum in vet school, and the voluntary seminars that are conducted are sponsored by Hill's and Purina. We do not recommend any Purina products, due to poor quality ingredients, including corn, by-products, and a dangerous synthetic form of vitamin K, and the manufacturing process, which includes outsourcing of ingredients from China and poor quality control supervision.

"Richness" in food refers to fat content. Sometimes people use that term when what they mean is that the food is too complex, i.e. that it has a wide variety of ingredients, different protein sources, etc., and some dogs do better with a simpler formula, i.e. one that contains limited ingredients, possibly a single protein source, etc. Another factor might be fiber content.

[Lisa Marin]

My 7 month old had the same issues....lots of trial and error with different foods....finally finding a perfect food for him. No loose stools at all anymore!! Natures variety LID turkey has been my miracle food....not sure if it is the tapioca but am thrilled he can tolerate it! I agree, rule out giardia then maybe give it a try??

[Gena, Wookie and baby boy coming]

Thank you all for your feedback..  saw the Vet... no giardia, no parasites...  Today only chicken and rice....(threw up a bit of it this morning...- hope it stays with him)    staying on Metronidazole to help with inflammation in tummy.. once we get to a firm stool, we will back off of the medicine... making sure stool stays good.. the will try introducing new food..  picked up Natural Balance - Sweet Potato and whitefish- LID...  Thanks for the help everyone..   I will keep you posted..

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Gena, I am using another NB LID formula, and due to the low protein, I am supplementing with fresh boiled chicken. You might want to consider doing that too. My grocery store carries large bags of frozen ice-glazed Tilapia filets for a very good price, and you can easily add one to each meal to boost the protein levels. Any type of whitefish would work.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Gena, Wookie and baby boy coming]

I like that idea Karen!  Thank you....  

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

If you add fresh food, you have to reduce the amount of kibble, but it depends on what the fresh food is. If it's something like green beans, which have practically no calories, it's not a big deal. If you add a small "topper", like half a chopped hardboiled egg, it's no big deal, but if you are adding something with a substantial amount of calories, you cut back the kibble.

LID foods are for dogs with some type of sensitvity, and I personally would not be feeding it otherwise, because it's too low in protein. But I have no choice right now. Jack is supposed to be getting 4.5 cups per day of the kibble. Instead, he's getting 3 cups, and I'm adding an amount of boiled chicken equal to the calories in that missing 1.5 cups. This way, the overall protein percentage of his daily calorie intake is greatly increased, but I'm staying with the limited ingredients of chicken and sweet potatoes.

Treats are a different story. That totally depends on the type of treat and the amount given. I have never treated excessively and never adjusted food intake due to treats. I've also never had issues with how much a dog ate or didn't eat. I think all of that is a separate situation from Gena's situation. She's got a dog with stool issues who was previously eating a high protein diet. Going to a low protein diet may cause more stool issues, because high carbs tend to produce more stool and looser stool for many dogs. So my suggestion that Gena add fresh food is not as a topper or something to tempt Huey to eat, it's a suggestion to alter the nutritional balance of the food so that it's more in keeping with Huey's normal diet. Anyone who is/was feeding raw is going to want a higher protein/ lower carb diet. I don't think there's an issue with him not wanting to eat. So this is really a different issue.

 

[Gena, Wookie and baby boy coming]

UPDATE!  Huey is pooping like a Real dog!   Thank you all for your helpful advice.  Much appreciated!  After 3 days on chicken and rice and normal stools, I introduced some Nature's Balance Sweet Potato and fish...  got a little nervous.. no poop for 48 hours (yikes) --  now fully switched over and 2 beautiful trips to the back yard everyday!  So excited that he his feeling well and needs no medication.  

 

Wookie is almost fully transitioned to the TOTW Bison and venison and off the raw diet and seems to be feeling good -

Success with a little help from our friends!  Thank you again..  Gorgeous day in New England -- time for some ball chasing!!!  Have a great day! 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yay, great news! Fingers crossed that it continues!