Use of Mood Altering Meds

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Murphy's dominance issues have escalated and now we aren't able to leave him alone in the house with our son.  Over the weekend our son, Tim, walked into the den where his dad and I were with both of the dogs.  Murphy jumped up and lunged after him barking and backing him out of the room.  I was right there so I was able to grab his collar and correct him, but our son (who has Down Syndrome and is pretty sensitive) was frightened.  For the rest of the weekend he didn't want to leave his bedroom.  So this is a new level and much more serious than Murphy's dog reactiveness.  I now have Tim doing all of Murph's feedings and whenever he walks into a room where Murph is he tells him to stay and gives the hand signal.  I think this is helping, but I do not trust Murph with Tim at all.  So we're onto Plan B.  We are going to start using an e collar for our training.  Murph is not consistently respecting my corrections when we meet other dogs and that needs to change.  I'm also thinking that he may not be getting enough full out running exercise.  We take him for an hour walk in lots of different places each day and then short potty trips, plus the treadmill if the weather isn't good.  His walks are mostly mental exercise because he is expected to walk right by my side.  So we're going to take him to state land a couple times a week and just let him run.  That may or may not help, but it's worth a try.  I haven't done it in the past because I was not 100% confident in his recall.  I have been keeping him within about a 12 ft radius on these off leash walks.  He will always come to me if he's fairly close.  The ecollar will give me more confidence in this situation.

So that brings me to the question of meds.  I am going to schedule an appointment for Murph with a Vet Behaviorist who practices out of the Specialty Hospital that we used when Guinness had Pancreatitis.  They do a full exam and blood work up before providing a diagnosis.  It will be good to rule out physical causes of Murphy's dominant behavior.  In a brochure that I got from the Behavior Clinic they talk about the use of psychotrophic meds.  They also talk about dietary changes and use of tryptophan for dogs who display dominance aggression.  I have been hoping to avoid this with Murphy, but perhaps it's time.  I think my biggest concern is potential side effects.  When people have side effects to these drugs they are able to talk about it but with a dog we would never know.  The meds could be making Murph feel anxious or uncomfortable and he wouldn't be able to let us know.  Anyway, I have lots of concerns but I'll never know for sure until I go and talk to this doctor.  I'm just wondering if anyone else is using these "mood changing" drugs with their Doodles.  I'd love to have some first hand feedback.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks BG.  If it's not pouring tomorrow we'll be "running" Big Murph till he drops.  We don't have the ecollar yet (ordered) so I just hope we don't lose him.

[Pat and Traveler]

Oh, no!  I was shocked to hear about this new Murphy phase.  Hope Tim is feeling a bit more comfortable now.  I worked for psychiatrists for years, and know the psychotropic meds can have life-altering effects for people.  So sorry you have this new behavior to deal with.  Hugs to all of you. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thank you, Pat.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Jane,

Earlier today I was typing from my phone and I should not do that!  Ugh.    But I am back to make some comments about the  exercise plan you mentioned.

You know Spud is an extremely energetic dog.  Even when he was a  young pup, we realized walking was going to do absolutely nothing.  Well, it did get me in better shape but I came home tired, not him.

Almost every night, we took him down to a school that is at least 4 acres, fenced in, and when no one was there  ran him to near exhaustion with Frisbees and Chuck It throws. Now, with the fence, we go out to the back yard once an hour and play a good round of fetch for 10 minutes.  Every hour.  He is 3.5 years old and still, Spud needs a good work out or he is off the wall.

I  have noticed a slight change in recent months.  He is calming at his age, but without exercise, like on rainy days, I kind of dread the day knowing he is going to be tough to handle without a job to do.  I've stood many days in the ran ( tonight included) throwing balls until my elbows lock up.  

I'm thankful I found Spud first. I know, if he would have gone to a busy family, he would have been brought to a shelter  just because of his need for exercise in order for him to feel normal.

I'm a big believer in this plan of yours. I had no idea Murphy was only getting walked.  I wish he was here with Spud and they could roll around all day in the mud.  But he is not.  Get yourself  a supply of balls and run that boy!!

With medication and the exercise combination, I think you have a great plan.

In regards to tryptophan vs anti-depressants.  Tryptophan ruins my gut.  So be cautious with this drug and his belly.  I'd opt for the tried and true meds. They have worked for many of us.  Of course, that is up to you and the Doc. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thank you AGAIN RJ.  I so appreciate your input....you've dealt with so much yourself.  We're hoping to see a difference with all these new strategies.  Unfortunately we don't have a place where he can run off leash that is fenced in....just the state land which is probably 30+ acres, but no fences.  It is a bit of a worry that he would take off, but I've not decided it's worth the risk.  As I mentioned, his recall has been solid but never in a situation where he was loose with that much distance from me.  Our appointment isn't for two weeks....I wish it was sooner but I understand that I'm lucky to only have this much of a wait.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Is he ball crazy?  I never go any where off leash without a ball in my hand and I make sure he sees it  before the adventure starts.  I've also used squeaky toys.

Jane, what we did was go to school. Off hours.  A primary school.  Typically, those areas are fenced in. 

Now Spud likes kids, but he has always been exuberant  with greetings.  And that is not good with the little ones.

We also went to tennis courts. That may be an idea for you.  They are fenced.  Just have that leash around your neck and if someone comes, warn them off until you can get out.   But it really wore him down inside those courts.

High School tracks areas

Honestly, I think I have scouted out every area in 20 miles until we got the fence.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

He is ball obsessed....loses his mind over them.  We can only use them if Guinness isn't around because he gets so overwhelmed that he attacks Guinness....seriously it's very scary for poor Guinness and his Mom.  When I play ball with both of them they have to take turns going after it....it's very controlled or else Murph turns into a lunatic.  I think I'll need to take Murph alone in order to give him the chance to really run full out with no restrictions.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Oh ya. I know that one well.  The attacks ( Starlit attacked Spud or humans or both)  Rarely Spud, but she did get him a few times. Poor guy.  We had to separate toys.

But then, we could not take Starlit to any park off leash.  She would bolt.  She ran down a highway for a mile once.  Enough. And dangerous. 

So DH and I would go together.  She was with me walking on leash and HAPPY  and Spud and DH would play ball.  It worked.  It really does take two humans for daily management.

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

Jane, I'm sorry to hear about this recent turn of events. I know it seems tough now but you never cease to amaze, impress and inspire me with your dedication and love for Murphy and your family. I hope these next few steps are the answers to all your woes. I agree that the running will do a lot of good. Do you know anyone who could take him for on leash runs? I suppose it would be difficult for someone else to handle him.

I know someone who tried antidepressents/anxiety meds of some sort with his dog (boston terrier), and I can ask him about his experience if you wish....

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks Sherri....that would be helpful if you don't mind.  I know that every dog's experience is probably different but I just feel like getting feedback will prepare me to ask all the right questions when we see the Doctor.  Joanne's the only one I know of who has ever even tried these meds.  I just joined a Yahoo group to see if I can get some experiences....I've just started wading through questions/responses and so far nothing useful.

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

I sent him a message Jane. I'll let you knwo what he says.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Ha!  Jane, many on here have tried them.  There are several doodles on them. I shall keep their confidence and hope they approach you themselves.

So much backlash you wont find many who will come forward.  The nasty emails I received for trying to help my girl.  So many on the " Say No to Drugs" but are the same people who would have no problem medicating their dogs for stomach aliments.  All the same to me.  Why would you treat a tummy and not the poor emotions.  :)

So, I hope they speak up