Raising two litter mates = mortal sin?? Please chime in!

[Discussing Labradoodles & Goldendoodles]

Hi everyone,

My husband and I picked up our two perfect (to us, anyway) doodle boy puppies this last weekend.  We only found out about "litter mate" syndrome AFTERWARDS and why it is apparently the worst idea in the world to raise two puppies at once, especially litter mates.  However, we are taking proactive measures to prevent anything like litter mate syndrome occurring.  They are our boys now and we are committed to having them be in our family for life.

With that said, for every opinion we read on the internet, there is a conflicting opinion against it.  Here's what we are trying to do so far:

1. They are crated separately, in separate rooms near our bedroom.

2. We feed them separately, each by their own crate with the door open.

3. We give them special "crate treats" so they hopefully start liking their crate.  Nothing seems to work as yet, though.  They like kongs with peanut butter and American cheese, but they stop playing once their crates are closed and won't touch the treats for the duration they are in there.

4. We have a walker come by every mid-day for 30-45 to let them outside and to play.

5. We train them and interact with them individually.

6. They do have romp around play time together for at least 3 hours a day after my husband and I get home from work.

We are worried that we are doing something wrong that may be hard to correct in the future. They yelp at night when we put them in (only for about 5-10) mins., which is pretty good I think.  We have read that we should crate them when we are home for small amounts of time too though, so they don't associate crating with being alone.  However, when I walk around the house they lose it again and will yelp for longer periods of time.  Should I still walk around to de-sensitize them? 

One of the puppies (Chewie) can't stand being in the room his crate is in when the door is shut...even when he is out of the crate.  He paws at the door and cries and cries...it's especially bad when we are feeding them.  He won't eat and is determined to get out and be with his brother.  If he manages to escape and get past us, he immediately goes to Barnaby's bowl and tries to eat with him.  Neither dog reacts aggressively to this, but I know they should eat separately...the short of it is, I want to help them be happy puppies! 

If anyone has any advice, or has had the same experience with litter mates, please let me know!  I welcome all comments and suggestions (except those that tell me to re-home one of them)!  I'm sorry for rambling, I'm just a concerned puppy parent.  Thank you so much.

Elizabeth

[Lori, Quincy & Frankie]

What gorgeous little guys!  

I only have one but I never put him in his crate except when we are not home (and at night when he was very young). He is not crazy about his crate, although until this week he would go bounding in once he saw his Kong.  Now I have to coax him-he is now 9 months.  

Interesting that you have to separate- I thought a benefit would be to have their sibling near.  I am no expert though, as I said, only have one!  

Good luck.   will be interesting to read others experience. 

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I just wouldn't worry too much about this so called "syndrome".  Give them lots of love, training and patience and they will be fine. I agree about crates. Have them in same room and also, they would probably do better in your room, at least at night.

Have you tried a sound machine on top of the crate?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

We have an active member here who raised littermates for five years and could have given you some tips, but she lost one of them Monday to lymphoma. :(

I know we do have some past discussions about it here if you do a search of the forum.

I have no experience with littermates personally, but I do want to mention that it's a good idea to not change a puppy's diet in any way for at least two weeks after he comes home, and that includes treats. A lot of these puppies come home with giardia, which has a two week incubation period, and if you introduce new foods or chnge their food, and the pup gets diarrhea, you won't know if it's the food or a parasite. if the treats, peanut butter, cheese, etc are something the breeder was giving them, you're okay, but otherwise I would limit that.

Good luck with your new babies.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

A couple of  past discussions by other owners of littermates:

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/we-need-help-advice-on-bad

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/littermate-sisters

[Ginny Nightingale]

I think the separation thing has to do with the fact that the puppies bond to each other and become a pack and it makes it harder for YOU to get control--one of these pups will be the natural leader and will direct the other pup instead of you running his life-NOW, I am not saying this is going to happen, but it is possible. I have often had two pups here for a month or so after 8 weeks of age (I raise pups for a breeder and sometimes people pick up their pups later than 8 weeks) I find it very difficult to teach them and work with them because they are so distracted by the other dog. Once I am down to one pup, it is easy--so one suggestion would be to take them to separate puppy classes and work with them individually--I would not put them in the same class at all--you need one-on-one time with them to get their attention on you.

Putting the crates nearby is fine, but my breeder feels that the dogs will have a hard time if ever needing to be separated--I would alternate it so that they have some experience apart. And my best advice for crying when crating during the day when you are home is to ignore it--if they have eaten and gone potty and all needs are met--pretend you are deaf and do not look at them or say anything--no comforting! they will quickly learn that whining gets them nowhere. 

I also would feed them in the crate with the door closed--they will be so distracted by their dinner that you can close the door until they are done. My 2 year old doodle has not been closed in his crate for over a year, but it is still in the kitchen because he runs right in to eat (a habit from his puppy days) and that way he is not interfering with my other two doodles when they eat. Each has their own bowl and he is the only one who might try to take food since he is still young-but he has learned to respect their right to eat alone!

[Adina P]

Kudos for even reading up on this and trying your best! Their crates probably need not be in separate rooms, but taking time with each of them as individual dogs is a good measure. Training one-on-one also a good thing. At first i would do training practice physically and visually separated from each other, but as they get stronger in their obedience you can have the other present in the crate, later tied out nearby, and later running free...all useful distractions if you use them purposely.

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

I am thinking about people who have twins and survive :) LOL I think I wouldn't worry about litter mate syndrome. I would move the crates into your bedroom so they can see you and vice versa and either let them sleep together or next to each other in crates. Those dogs are going to bond with you through training, interaction, feeding, potty breaks, walks, etc. I would think it is important to do things individually with each dog, including training. Enjoy those pups and sometimes our instincts are better than anything we can read in a book or on the Internet. Good luck!

[Lisa O.]

Hi Elizabeth,

Our huskies were litter mates. Sadly we just put down the remaining one two months ago.  I loved having them and it worked out perfect for us.  They would play and wear each other out. The male had higher energy than the female and it balanced thing out well.  I had trainers telling me to have them sleep apart or they will become to bonded with each other and not us.  I did not do that and they couldn't have been more bonded to us. We never fed them apart and never had any problems.  My advice is to listen to your heart and you will not regret having litter mates!  I have a fourteen month old Doodle now and wouldn't mind finding him a brother or sister.

 

Have a great day,

Lisa

[Cathy, Fozzie & Shaggy]

I completely agree with the advice to enroll your puppies in seperate classes.  There were littermates (living in different homes)  in the Puppy Gymnastics class (Crate Games) I had Shaggy in last summer.  They were difficult to work in the same class only because they wanted to be with each other and play.  

Crate Games were a fun way to help Shaggy get used to his crate, begin to learn patience (still working on that), learn wait, come, and be happy to be in his crate.  He now goes in there on his own to eat and lay down, the door is rarely closed.  I Googled "Crate Games for Dogs and lots came up.  I'm not sure what program the trainer used last summer but it was a fun different way to train. 

Your pups are adorable!!  Enjoy you Double Doodles!!!!

 

[Lynette Main]

I never heard of that.Did you get reasons Why they shouldn't be raised together? My daughter has always had Labs.and both times she has had brothers. Just as it would hard to raise two unrelated pups,she has never had any problems. When we got our Doodles they were months apart,of course we had to go through the puppy pea&potty but they almost trained themselves. By the time the third one entered the house she knew what the door bells meant and went to them.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here's an article on why it's not the best idea. There are many similar articles on-line:

"When I first started training dogs full time, another dog trainer warned me about problems between littermates that grow up together.  She said that she never recommends it because it can lead to problem behaviors down the road, including aggression between the dogs.  I thought she must be overreacting a bit or exaggerating how bad the problem could be, but I went and researched it a bit anyway.  I actually found a number of dog breeders that will not sell two littermates to the same family.  I was a little more convinced, but still wasn't sure I would advise people against adopting two siblings from the same litter.

Then, I saw it myself.  I had a client that had a male and female that were from the same litter.  It was one of the saddest things to watch them grow up together.  The male was so completely dependent on the female.  He never quite blossomed himself and he also suffocated her much of the time.  I don't know if they experienced aggression issues down the road because they've since moved away, but what I saw was enough to make me think that it was not a good idea.  I've also seen parent/child pairings that resulted in aggression problems when the puppy matured into an adult dog. 

Here is a little of what I have since discovered on the issue of littermates growing up together:

1 - It doesn't have to be littermates.  The same problems may occur when you raise either a mother and child or father and child pair.  It also appears that it may be problematic when you raise two unrelated puppies of the same age together.  In general, we recommend waiting a minimum of 6 months to a year AND getting your first dog's manners under control before you bring another dog home. 

2 - Raising two littermates can lead to, for lack of a technical term, "failure to blossom" in one of the dogs.  In fact, according to Steven Lindsay (author of Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training), one Guide Dog organization reported problems when a mother and child pair was fostered together and when littermates are fostered together.  Quoting a representative of the organization: "I cannot remember a single dog who was raised with her mother to adulthood who could be successfully trained for a Guide Dog.  Where two litter mates are raised together in the same home we have had the same results. . . . one becomes a successful candidate for Guide Dog work and one fails, even if their aptitude tests were equal." (Lindsay, 2000, p. 50).

3 - Two puppies raised together don't often have a chance to bond to family members because they're so busy bonding with one another.  This can lead to trouble with training and behavior, and over-bonding with one another may lead to difficulties with being left alone or separated for even short periods as adults.

4 - Many trainers recommend the following steps if you have littermates:

      - Take time with each dog individually EVERY day for the first 6 or so months you have them so that they can bond with you instead of just bonding to one another.  Go out for separate walks (you'll need to do this to teach nice leash manners anyway), have some one-on-one training sessions with each of them, and attend a group puppy class with each one (separate classes!). 

     - Separate the dogs when you are gone during the day (for the first 6 months).  You can do this by crating them in different rooms of the house or by babygating them into separate rooms (in a way that doesn't allow them to interact through the gate).  I know, you're thinking this is foolish because I want my dogs to play with each other and keep each other company during the day.  They will do that.  Someday.  Just not during their formative months.  Let them each develop an individual personality first and then allow them to be together during the day. 

Now that I've said all that, I want to be frank.  NONE of what I've just said has been proven in a verifiable, repeatable study.  I have yet to see a study that confirms the claims I've just made (I hope that someday we'll have more information on this, but as of yet, I don't think any studies exist).  For those of you that know me or read my blog regularly, you'll know that I don't like to pass on information that is simply based on anecdote.  There is far too much mythology and plain-old-junk out there in dog training to justify throwing ideas out willy nilly.  However, I've seen enough evidence of problems with raising two littermates or a parent/child pair that I'm willing to warn dog owners of the problems and recommend that they not adopt a pairing like this.  At the very least, I make recommendations about precautions they can take, always with the caveat that the problem hasn't been studied enough to be verifiable. 

I just attended the annual conference of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants and I asked a Veterinary Behaviorist that was at the conference what she thought of the problems of raising littermates together.  She confirmed my suspicion that there haven't been any studies on the topic, but, she has also seen enough problems to cause her to recommend that clients not adopt a littermate or parent/puppy pair.  So, take it for what it is worth - just anecdotal evidence - but I for one won't adopt any littermates any time soon!"

http://buddyschance.typepad.com/positive_dog_training_blo/2007/04/a...

[Stella]

Interesting.  Because of the problems we had with Hartley and Chase fighting a lot a couple of years ago (two neutered males, one year apart in age).  I vowed that next time we get two dogs they will be a brother and sister from the same litter.  I figured that this would give them a better chance of getting along with each other!!  Hopefully it is a long time until we are getting another dog, but I already planned on exercising and training them individually, but allowing them to be together in the house.  And now I read that puppies from the same litter are more likely to be aggressive towards each other?  Very disappointing.