Confused!

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

I was going through the old posts about Beverly Manners, her daughter Angela, etc., trying to make sense of all of it.  Maybe someone can help?

As far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty much universally acknowledged that these two are complete nut cases, likely suffering from mental illness but in any case doing all sorts of bad things including operating puppy mills, scamming the public, repeatedly attempting to change the name of the breed, etc.

So if this is true, why is it considered desirable to have a dog whose pedigree goes back to Rutland and Tegan, if these are puppy mills turning out all kinds of unhealthy dogs?  

If these two were the "founders", and their practices are so shady, we do we believe that statement we hear so often about ALD's being the result of careful mixing of labrador, poodle, two different cocker spaniels, etc.?

What about Wally Condon?  How does he fit into all this?  Some sites will say that he started the breed.  What relation does he have to Beverly and Angela?

What is the deal with Wheaten Terriers possibly having been included?

Is it accurate to say that Americans are saving - or perhaps recreating - the breed by adding new diversity into the bloodlines and screening for defects?

What is difference between ALCA and ALAA?  What is the relationship between them?

I am the loving owner of an ALD that is a wonderful, healthy dog.  I've been singing the praises of ALD's everywhere I go - but maybe I should have been more careful before drinking the Kool Aid?

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shed.

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

Regardless of any accusations that may be true or not true and regardless of any issues with a disfunctional family that may be true or not true, the fact remains that ALD's were developed and are a fantastic dog. The ALCA is trying to protect these old wonderful lines so does not allow any more infusions. The ALAA has taken a different path and is trying to broaden the foundation lines. ALCA  dogs qualify to belong to the ALAA but ALAA dogs do not always meet the ALCA criteria.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Thanks Barb, that makes sense.  Is the part about ALDs being a mix of labrador, poodle, american cocker spaniel, english cocker spaniel, etc. verifiable?  Or does no one really know for sure, just that somehow these wonderful dogs came to be and now it's a matter of where to go from here?  How was ALCA able to get comfortable that there is sufficient genetic diversity to avoid problems down the road?  BTW I have spoken and emailed with Gail at ALCA a number of times about various matters, and as far as I can tell she is a bright, honest and ethical as a person and as a breeder.  I hope it doesn't sound like I am arguing or criticizing - just trying to understand. 

[Lynda Kamrath]

Ahhh, don't think about it too much.  If you are enjoying your dog, that is all that counts.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

The reason it's an issue is because everywhere I go people compliment her and ask what breed she is, etc.  Then I have to explain to them what an ALD is, and naturally I want to be able to answer in a truthful manner.  I love my dog very much, so I want to support the breed and support good breeders who are selling a good product with the potential to make so many other people happy.  Of course, I would never do that if I thought that I might be unwittingly or indirectly supporting puppy mills and the like.  You are right that I personally don't have a dog in the fight, as they say.  I love my dog and what would be true no matter what she is or where she came from.  But for the breeders' own sake, they really should take a firm and coherent position on all this. The existing tension between the online marketing materials and what those "in the know" seem to actually believe is a PR disaster waiting to happen.

[Amy, Cubbie & Ollie]

I always just tell people that my 2 are labradoodles and leave it at that.  If they start asking how they get to be so small then I may or may not explain about ALD.  It really just depends on the person I'm talking to.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

You're not the first one I've met to take that approach.  Maybe I will too.

[Amy, Cubbie & Ollie]

it is just so much easier because most people don't really care to hear about the other breeds that can be mixed in with my dogs. Labradoodles are popular enough now that people often even recognize what they are by how they look.  I don't really care if they are ALD or pure bred poodles or some other crazy mix.  They are my 2 furry little guys and I love them regardless of what they are officially called and prefer to avoid some sort of debate with random people that I meet on the street or at the dog park :)

[Krista W, Rainmaker Ranch]

I think every breeder has their own path and plan. Most of us are trying to breed the best dogs, health, temperament and conformation over anything else. IF you have a great dog your breeder has succeeded with that line.

 

This mixed breed is difficult in that the history is muddled and very short in comparison to other breeds and the gene pool of excellent dogs is small. Therefore quality breeders are trying to do all health testing possible, breed wisely and study pedigrees. When you breed a dog between the ages of 2 and 6 it is paramount you understand the pedigrees as not all health issues have DNA tests and not all health issues appear until well beyond that time frame. Issues such as seizures, addisons and hip dysplasia for example. So having a short history is a problem over some breeds that have 30-50 years and generations of recorded health issues in lines. Noting that not all breeders are forthcoming with health issues it sometimes takes three of four issues in a line used by more than one breeder to have the issue come to light. With a small gene pool of quality dogs those dog lines are obviously in demand and thus with all of us using them we are on a critical path in regard to inbreeding. Some breeders are outcrossing (breeding to what they believe are quality poodles, Labradors and first generation doodles) to avoid inbreeding and some are worried about bringing in more dogs with possible issues so are avoiding “infusing”. It depends on many variables if one plan is better than the other (and I do not profess to know the answer), do you take the chance on an unknown line (one you believe is good but has not been used for years by those you trust) or take the chance on inbreeding and decreasing temperament and a dogs ability to deal with stress or doubling up on some genetic problem but use a line you personally trust.

 

As for the beginning of the mixed breed, not all negative breeding practices result in bad dogs. The reason this mixed breed has been successful here is the handful of excellent dogs that came from Australia to America and Canada, were health tested and produced wonderful offspring. People who owned them told others and the word spread. From what I know Wally was not a big breeder and I don’t think any of his dogs are in use today at any scale, it was an idea. Don Evans was probably the first to take his idea and produce the dog type at any scale and then others in Australia took the idea over and mixed and matched. Regardless some lines are fantastic and highly recommended by all.

 

As for the clubs they each have a direction and mission although different, both are doing what they can with the best in mind for the dogs, most of the time.

Just my opinion.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Thanks Krista!  That is a thoughtful and articular explanation.  I certainly appreciate the challenges you describe and am grateful for the work you and others like you are doing.  I interpret what you and others have said as meaning that what is relevant is not simply that a particular dog goes back to RM, but that it goes back to specific RM dogs that have been selected and screened by quality breeders outside of RM, in order to preserve what is best about the "old lines" while avoiding problems that other individuals from RM might have.  Is that accurate?  I suppose to some extent that would be the case with any breed.

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Thanks Krista!  This is exactly I thought and hoped has been happening in America and Canada because these are such wonderful dogs!!

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

I have struggled with this myself, for two reasons. 1) People ask all the time what breed is Finnegan and where can they get a dog like him? and 2) If I oppose puppy mills and unscrupulous breeding in this country, why would I not find it just as unacceptable from another country?  I do a lot of research and when I got my pup, I thought the "story" behind the ALD was true. There were some questions and accusations coming to light, however. I don't care about their dysfunctional family.  I do care about good breeding practices and humane treatment. 

I give RM credit for developing the foundation of a consistent and wonderful dog, but I no longer buy the whole "story." There is good evidence that the source and the ancestry of some of their breeder dogs is questionable as is their health "testing."  I believe there's credible evidence that they bred unhealthy dogs.  While no one can guarantee 100% that a pup won't face certain genetic problems (as health issues can skip generations and our best tests are no guarantee),  you pay a lot of money for a pup because you want the peace of mind that the breeder is reputable, treats their dogs well, and their lines have been health tested as advertised.  Let the buyer beware. I wouldn't trade my guy for the world. He's smart, adorable, and has a great temperament, but he also has some health issues which is why I have continued my research.  I have not only used the internet, I have spoken with several people (NOT the internet accusers) who have dealt directly with these folks.  Now when I look at his "pedigree" loaded with RM and TP, I have very mixed feelings.

BM claims she introduced the Wheaten for reasons of gait and movement.  Given her track record, I would speculate that it's really an attempt to retain ownership over what she calls the "authentic" ALD since other ALD Associations and breeders are moving away from her and the controversy. Whatever the reason, I personally think it's a mistake to introduce a terrier disposition into the breeding and would not want that in a doodle.  Just my opinion.

Let me be clear though - I know first hand that there are many good committed breeders in this country (including my own) who are striving to weed out unhealthy breeding dogs sometimes at great expense to themselves.  I hope the ALD has a bright future in the hands of these breeders because they are absolutely wonderful dogs!!!!  Half human, I say :) 

Enjoy your pup!  She's beautiful. 

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Thank you Cheryl.  You summarized my experience exactly.  One minute I was going around confidently telling people that if they want a dog like this they should look for a "real" ALD from RM and TP.  Then I met someone who had a horrible experience with what seems to have been one of BM's dogs.  I thought to myself, that cannot be true and frankly I got kind of defensive.  Then I started doing some more research online and found all the BM stuff.  I had heard about her before but I suppose I never made the connection that she was the one being credited with having founded the breed.  So I was pretty shocked by this.

I think it would be helpful if the quality breeders outside of BM made it clear that while they use and have used RM and TP dogs that they obtained before the various scandals came to light, they have since stopped supporting and doing business with them, and all dogs that they continue to use in their breeding programs have been properly screened and tested.  That way it would be clear to the consumer that they are not indirectly supporting a bad practice by purchasing an ALD.