Trying to stay positive...

[Zachary Binder]

Hi all,

We've had a Doodle, Scout, as part of our family for just 6 days and it's getting harder to survive the nights...

I fully understand that at just over 9 weeks, there are a lot of things that Scout is still learning and that nothing is "uncorrectable". I also understand that some of her behaviors just cannot be corrected now - she just isn't capable of learning everything that we need her to do this early.

The big problem is crate training. We have her crate (midwest wire crate w/ adjustable sizing) just off of our kitchen and living room. Scout cannot stand to be placed in her crate at night and we just don't feel that it is right for us to put the crate in our bedroom (located just off of the living room - 30 feet and a door from her crate).

She started out sleeping 2 hours at a stretch and then she would start whining and then barking/howling. I would get up and take her out and sit with her next to her crate until she fell back asleep and then go back to bed until she woke up again and started whining, etc...

The 2 hour stretches have seldom made it to 2.5 hours and recently have gone down to 45 minutes to an hour.

Thankfully I work from my home office and can work with her during the day so she doesn't have to be crated for long stretches. It's only night time that is a huge problem. I can handle it if she is crated/penned for short periods when we need to leave the house or I need to shower, etc.

I've tried exercising her vigorously as much as I can during the day, but she hates her harness (stops to scratch at it every 2 feet while outside) and when her collar is used, she has started to pull and bite at her leash when she can get it. Vigorous exercise for her seems to be trying to eat leaves/twigs/bark/clumps of sod. We haven't had her off of her 6 foot leash outside. I'm scared she is going to start thinking her name is NO!

Does anyone have any tips to help us keep our sanity in these next few days hopefully (but weeks probably) until she starts sleeping better? She won't play in her crate when the door is closed - she simply whines/barks/howls and tries to climb the gate.

I have her in her pen now and am trying to work using my laptop sitting on the couch 8 feet from her pen. She fell asleep on the floor after some whining. She'll get her sleep - when will I get mine? :)

I'm debating putting an air mattress in the pen and sleeping next to her. But I don't want to give in to her demands :)

I know she's just a puppy and this will pass, but some helpful hints would go a long way! :)

Thanks in advance!

Zak

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Zak, You will get a lot more sleep if you move that crate into your bedroom. When she cries you can reassure her you are near by putting your fingers in the crate. We used a Snuggle Puppy and I swear by those things. We did this with both are dogs and eventually stopped crating them at night, but kept them in our bedroom, and now they have free run at night and are fine. Join the Puppy Madness group and search for other discussions. It is also a place where everyone is going through what you are going through. Puppies just can't hold it all night, but it will get better. Is she going potty when you take her out? If she is pooping each and every time, then a stool sample should be taken to the vet. Just keep working with her on leash. It gets better. This is why they come so cute :) Good luck!

[Jennifer Tramell]

I have found that crates don't work for all dogs; I've had dogs who like crates and those who don't.  I know that if I were persistent enough, my puppy would have adjusted to the crate, but I like my sleep too much :-)  Also, we didn't intend to use the crate once the dog was an adult, so my motivation for crate training was pretty low.

The dogs who weren't in the crate would stay in a non-carpeted room at night.   A small kitchen, laundry room, and bathroom are all areas that we've used.  However, regardless of where they stayed the night, I expected for the first 2 weeks to be sleep deprived.  I would get up when the pup cried too much so my husband could sleep the night (I'm home during the day, he goes to work).  I used ticking clocks, stuffed animals, quiet radios, etc, but the fact is that some pups cry at first and some pups don't.  Oh, and my dogs always relapsed around 8 months - it's like they would get bored at night and want some attention/diversion.  I would get up at night to let them out, but they would just wander, sniff, and want attention. 

[Jen and Annie]

Maybe if you don't want to put the crate in your room, you can leave your bedroom door open, and position her crate so that she can still see you?  And see how that goes? For most dogs, they are crying because they think you can't find them - or because they don't know where you are.. since dogs are pack animals, when they are left alone they try try try to get back with the 'pack'.  We did keep the crate in our bedroom with Annie, and we all slept perfectly.  She would wake up once per night to go potty when she was really small, but by the time she was about 14-16 weeks old, she would sleep through the night.  As Laurie mentioned, whenever Annie would wake up whimpering, I would roll over, pet her through the crate and say "It's OK" and she would go right back to sleep.   

You could also try to do some 'day training' with the crate to 'condition' a positive connection with the crate.  You can either use a clicker or just treats.  But sit near the crate, and toss a treat inside.  When she goes in her crate, tell her she's a good girl. Don't lock her in right away, leave the crate door open and entice her to go inside of the crate willingly. You can also feed her meals inside of the crate - but stay in sight.  She will get used to it - I know, based on the howls, that you probably think she will never be ok in there - it gets better and yes.   

Do you have a fenced in backyard?  I find that fetch is a great energy outlet for dogs - and as long as you have them retrieving a ball or frisbee for you, they are focused on that and NOT on eating sticks, twigs, and leaves.  It also helps them to appear 'better behaved' when back inside because they get too tired to get into much else. 

Scout is a very cute little girl!  And yes, it will get better... 

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Well you're fighting this.  You are fighting a small puppy.   Give in just a little.  You want sleep, then put a small cat carrier on a chair next to your pillow.  If the pup can see you, smell  you, hear you, it WILL GO TO SLEEP!  Then so will you!

Simple

You sound like you are strict in your demands and really want to win a teaching battle with a tiny baby animal. 

This will come.

This puppy just left its' mother and litter. For all its life, it has slept with the pack. Well, you are now the PACK.  Give in just a little while this new baby learns all new surroundings.  

Think about it... would  you be happy to be in an all new world, then at night be in the dark, alone?

Suddenly, you wake up in China.  You know nothing. Your family is gone, but the new locals tell you to stay alone, at night in the dark.  You really miss the family you used to sleep with. The one that kept you warm, safe, secure.

Your JOB right now is the make this puppy feel secure.  You promised when you adopted to continue being the pack. It's scared!  It is not trying to win any battles. It is not fighting you!

It will grow up confident and one day make you feel secure

Go buy a small cat carrier for  few weeks until this settles down. 

[a.k.a. Rodney]

2things that helped shape my new 11 wk old doodles night time experience...we brought her home @ 8 wks she was 3.4 lbs. the breeder STRESSED having her sleep in a plastic small airline type travel kennel
..that's what they slept in at her home...and to keep her AS CLOSE as I could to my bed...we listened to her ( put smalk kennel on chair near my bed & every day moved it a little farther away) and we never had to even use a snuggle puppy( which I had along with a small blanket from her litter..never used either) or stick fingers in to comfort her. I believe she knew I was close and was secure & satisfied with that info. Other thing as she was here about 10 days, I believe, she became uncomfortable with the dimensions of her sleeping arrangement, so I introduced her to the wire crate in the kitchen...of course with some toys and treats in there at first during the day...
Honestly, she's not perfect by any means, but the night time not being a problem helps dealing with the rest of puppy mania a whole lot better!!! GOOD LUCK!! derby is a work in progress. This site is extremely helpful, but get a plan, stick to it and then add flexibility to it as they mature & get larger

[Joani, Skadi & Elli]

This is such good advice Joanne...Wow...you know your stuff!!!  Poor poor puppies, putting up with us humans...when will we learn.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

What a great way of explaining it.  Right on the money.

[Zachary Binder]

Thanks to everyone for their quick replies.  I understand that things would be easier if she was in our bedroom, but everything I've read on training and heard from our breeder is that puppy should not be allowed in our bedroom. Period.

At the end of the day, our only goal is for her to be a member of our family that knows she is an alpha in our hearts, but a beta (behavior-wise at least) in our pack. We want her to always be safe, secure, and comfortable in her place in our pack.

I'm not expecting a miracle puppy overnight. I'm just hoping to find a way to sleep for more than an hour at a time and was hoping to be able to stand my ground to the "no bedroom" rules. It doesn't sound like this was desired/possible for a lot of you. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our priorities.

I'm just terribly concerned that once we allow her into our bedroom, she won't ever be able to sleep anywhere else.

Thanks so much for your advice!

Zak

[Lori, Quincy & Frankie]

We started our pup by the bed, in a small crate, and gradually moved it further, than outside the door, then back downstairs.  He was not always happy going in, but he always settled down and if he was tired enough, he did not even give us a hard time going in.  Now he sleeps free, not even gated, and generally winds up on the cool tile in the bathroom or at the head of the stairs.  He is 9 3/4 months now.  We only use the crate for when we are out of the house. He goes right in with his treat filled Kong and toys.  Good luck!  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't know what trainers you've been following, but even the Monks of New Skete, who are not known for their "positive" training methods,  advocate keeping a dog in your bedroom at night...just not on the bed. 

I think perhaps you need to forget the "alpha-beta" stuff, or find a better source of information. I will tell you that the "beta" in a pack is the one who is constantly challenging the alpha for the top position. They are never "comfortable with their place".  You definitely do not want your dog to be the "beta" in your pack, lol. 

And in fact, a truly dominant "alpha" dog has no problem sleeping away from the pack. In fact, they insist on it. One way you know you have an "alpha" dog is that they do not care to share your space, even from a very young age.

There are hundreds and hundreds of training theories out there, and none that is valid for every dog. You need to get to know your individual puppy and adjust your methods and rules according to what works best for your individual dog.

Breeders are experts at breeding, I have met very few who are experts on training. If yours has put obedience titles on any of her dogs, perhaps her advice merits following. Otherwise, I would ignore it. If she feels so strongly about the dog sleeping alone, why didn;t she start crate training with the puppies before they went home? That's what my last breeder did, and my puppy had no problem sleeping in her crate away from the rest of the family, because she was accustomed to that. The one who had a problem with it was me. I like having my dog in my room with me at night. Most of us here do. All of our dogs are able to sleep elsewhere when necessary. And many if not most of them have their CGCs and are well-behaved, non-dominant dogs who do not challenge us for the "alpha" role in our packs. :-)

I've lived with dogs for 55 years and all of them slept in their owner's bedrooms. It created no problems with any of them, behavioral or otherwise. 

I hope you will re-evaluate your priorities. 

 

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Throw you book away :) For every book you read, you can find another one that says it should be done a different way. Our first dog, Hershey, I did it the old fashioned way and put her downstairs, while we slept upstairs. I listened to her cries for a week and almost went nuts. The books said not to go to her, let her cry. I regret it to this day. Fudge and Vern came home. I had two crates. One next to our bed. One in the living room. Easiest crating I ever did. Fudge never cried and when she whimpered, if I knew she didn't need to go out, I just put my fingers in crate so she could smell and touch me until she fell asleep. Vern was crated less than one week and then slept in our bedroom with the door shut. He never had a nightly accident. In the morning when Fudge needed to go out at 4 am, I brought her into bed with us and we all slept soundly for a few more hours. Vern left his mother the day we got him and he slept the first night with us in bed and did fine in the crate the next night. I always crated them when I left the house and they are 3 and 4 now and we no longer crate at all. I did a lot of things the books say to never do, but Fudge is the most independent dog I have ever had and both of them are content to sleep in any room. Making a puppy feel secure is not going to undermine your role as the big dog :) I raised two girls without reading one parenting book and they will tell you I should have...LOL...but, they survived and turned out great. Your instincts for your dog are sometimes better than anything you read. Good luck!

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I truly think you misunderstood this concept.