Health Effects of Neuter and Spay

Permalink Reply by Laurie, Wally & Charlotte on August 8, 2014 at 7:26pm

Charlotte's breeder did not spay her when she was a puppy, and Charlotte is an Australian multi-generational labradoodle. We had her spayed by our vet just before she turned six months, as we were advised to wait as long as possible, but to have it done before her first heat cycle. Our contract with the breeder stipulated that Charlotte be spayed, and that we provide documentation of the procedure. If you ever decide to get a second doodle, Cheryl, I would be happy to share with you our breeder's name and contact information.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Cheryl and Finnegan on August 8, 2014 at 8:20pm

Thank you, Laurie. I would appreciate that! In fact, send it to me anyhow because I sometimes get asked and as much as I love Finn's breeder, I can't recommend her as long as she does ESN.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Laurie, Wally & Charlotte on August 10, 2014 at 7:48am

I just sent it to you in a private message here on DK.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lynda Kamrath on August 9, 2014 at 9:07am

Exactly, Cheryl. You need to know your breeder, and your breeder needs to know you. I would never breed a pet intentionally, but I don't think I would want early neutering or spaying either (now). It is terrible losing a beloved pet and I have had two great dogs die at a much too early age. I will have a choice next time, and I will wait.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alex on July 23, 2014 at 3:14pm

We decided to wait 15 months to neuter our intact male on the advice of two different vets. He is about a year old now so we are close to there. Frankly, we have found the disadvantages to be quite minimal. We've had no difficulty preventing him from marking inappropriate locations, and he has never displayed any aggression toward us or other people or dogs.

A couple of minor issues we have noticed is that (1) on rare occasions neutered males will target him and react aggressively, and (2) he can get a little "humpy" when he is meeting a new dog *and* is in an unfamiliar environment (we think its related in part to anxiety). We hope we are on our way to training this out of him, and its not even clear that neutering would help -- he doesn't seem to hump appreciably more than his neutered and spayed puppy friends.

Back when he was 6 months old we did a lot of reading, asking around, and also discussed the issue on this forum (where it had already been discussed extensively). While it may be controversial to say, I came away with the impression that the benefits of adolescent neutering for a "typical" male (i.e. beta-ish personality, raised in a safe and comfortable environment from puppyhood) to be rather overstated, for complicated and in-part political reasons. The story is, I presume, very different for female dogs, males with more dominant and roaming personalities, shelter dogs, and dogs that are not always closely supervised and may have some opportunities to escape.

We will very likely neuter him anyway, though, for three reasons. First, there is a great deal of social pressure to do so, and we are a little tired of constantly explaining ourselves. Second, there is a small but real risk that a badly-timed hump of the wrong neutered dog will provoke a dangerous response. Third, beyond a certain age, the benefits of leaving him intact are probably minimal as well (although we worry that it might mess with his metabolism).

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on July 23, 2014 at 3:39pm

Have you found any issues with day cares or similar facilities? I don;t use them, but my friends who do have told me that many do not allow intact adult dogs.

It would also impact your ability to adopt from a rescue group.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alex on July 24, 2014 at 12:29pm

Yes, this is another disadvantage and is complicated; thank you for reminding me.

Our first day care facility stopped accepting him around 7 months. We respected the decision, but they were also quite aggressive about pressuring us to neuter him and were very judgmental, something we didn't really appreciate. This was also around the time his humping ticked up, which has since diminished (but not been completely eliminated).

We reconsidered at around 9 months, but after conferring again with our vet again decided to stay the course. He was very candid about having started to recommend waiting only recently (about 2 years prior), but was persuasive that given our lifestyle and dog's personality it would be better. So for a while we used a combination of pet sitters and a close neighbor-friend whose dog was also a very close friend of ours; this worked pretty well since we lived on a college campus.

Just recently we moved to California and are having to revisit the issue. We brought him to a well-regarded boarding facility here who luckily has a policy of evaluating the dogs on a case-by-case basis. He nearly got himself kicked out with humping during the first 45 minutes, but a 15 minute stay in solitary cured him fast and they have been happy to take him since.

Overall, there are definitely hassles associated with waiting that are lifestyle-dependent (for example, we have no plans to adopt another dog in the near future). I don’t think either waiting or not waiting should be a blanket recommendation. However, I do cop to believing that the behavioral benefits are probably greatly exaggerated. I probably wouldn’t just announce this to any dog owner, many of whom are breathtakingly irresponsible — but I consider doodlekisses to be a safe space with dedicated and informed owners.

Our dog was a sweet docile guy before puberty, and after puberty still is. He acquired some obnoxious habits while his hormones were surging, but these are mellowing with age and training (not too different from teenage boys?) Definitely there are male dogs for whom neutering has behavioral benefits. But, I would not be at all surprised if there are also others (reactive, fear-aggressive ones in particular) for whom it has drawbacks. Moreover, the perceived benefits are probably mixed up with the fact that the dogs are just maturing and getting older at the same time. And although the correlational studies about neutering and health problems are by no means definitive, common-sense and experience with other animals (namely us) suggests that messing with a mammal's hormones in the middle of a rapid growth phase is probably not without health costs.

Also, while the US doesn't have much experience with waiting to neuter, continental Europe does; and it is easy to see from visiting dense cities there that there are many unaltered males who accompany their owners in the street, to restaurants and markets, that are simply vastly better behaved than the typical suburban US dog. This is definitely *not* strong evidence that unaltered dogs are better behaved in the long run — but it is food for thought.

Overall, I think there are a lot of good reasons, given the energy and time we spend taking care of our dogs, to evaluate them for spay/neuter on a case-by-case basis, taking into account our and their personalities and lifestyles. Of course, all these decisions have to balance our responsibilities to our own dogs, and to society -- to raise dogs that are good citizens, that make others feel comfortable, that do not pose any kind of safety risk to others, and that will never contribute to the grotesque problem of pet overpopulation.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Adina P on August 7, 2014 at 9:30pm

Very well said, Alex. I know from a training discussion group I belong to (outside of DK) that the majority of trainers in that group do not neuter/spay their dogs at a young age. Many of them compete and kind of take it as a reason for pride that their intact dogs are so well behaved. I remember one discussion where they mentioned a training seminar many of them attended and how their intact males were barely affected by the females (one of which may have even been in heat I believe). They all obeyed as a matter of course and were able to behave in a calm manner. Now these trainers are not the average dog owners and a great majority of the average dog owners wouldn't have put that level of training into their dogs and wouldn't have that level of control over their dogs' behavior. But given that reputable breeders, show people and obedience folks live with intact dogs and bitches without issue, I too think that perhaps behavior issues of intact dogs are a little exaggerated. And yet...I will still probably neuter/spay a future puppy, though not before 6 months. Social pressure and a little fear of the unknown would do it for me. For me to keep an intact male, I'd need to have one that has your doodle's temperament and be an empty-nester with my dog being my main hobby. As it is, with kids taking up most of my attention and time, there's no way I could put in the time to keep an intact dog.