LARGE BREED PUPPY V. ALL LIFE STAGES HELP!!!!!!

[Lindsay n Archie]

I apparently have no clue what I am doing with these posts. Hopefully this third time is a charm!!!!!!!! please anyone help me, I am so stressed out now. Freaking out that Archie my older dog is going to have major problems from being on  the Fromm ALS grain free forever.

Please read from bottom up (sorry I posted in a different location!) Is my question, then the response I got from Fromm =( what do I do?!?!!? The puppy food has chicken. Isnt chicken an allergen???  She is recomending Purina, Hiills and Science Diet- of course. 

My response from Fromm to my large breed v ALS questions: 

Thank you for your email and in choosing Fromm Family Pet Foods.

While the Four-Star Nutritionals recipes are proven to be for all life stages, these foods may not be the best choice for a young puppy or a young large breed puppy. It is important to realize that puppies are very much like infants from the standpoint that their digestive system is very immature and has very limited capabilities. Fromm Puppy Gold and Large Breed Puppy Gold are specifically formulated considering these limited capabilities and aid in preventing excessive metabolic and physiological stress, which may cause some digestive inconsistencies. Once the puppy reaches their mature state, you may then begin to introduce a variety of Fromm Family adult foods to see which ones are the best match.

 

There’s no denying a large or giant breed has unique needs for nutrition because of their large size and growth patterns. Fromm Large Breed Puppy is created especially to accommodate these needs, offering a great nutritional option that will help them to mature properly without the concerns of growing too fast or developing joint issues etc. 

 

At the point you are currently at, we would encourage you to follow your veterinarian's advice.  The younger puppy should be introduced to the Large Breed Puppy Gold for the first 18 - 24 months of age and then to a Four-Star recipe. Since you have already passed the 24 month mark for your older dog, you can stay with any recipe you wish.  We are happy to hear you had success with the Four-Star Grain Free at a very young age through growth and development, while it would not be our general recommendation, there are many pet owners who use it very successfully.

 

Fromm features an unconditional satisfaction guarantee. If you are not satisfied with your purchase or your dog does not like the recipe, you can receive a full refund to try a new recipe. Simply retain the itemized purchase receipt (credit card receipt not valid) and the UPC / Proof-of-purchase. If for any reason you or your dog are not 100% completely satisfied you can send both the itemized receipt and UPC to us via US mail for a cash refund of your purchase price. Your retailer may also have an exchange / refund policy so please inquire with them as well.

MY INITIAL QUESTION 

Hi all, I havnt posted to hear in a long time!! Archie is now over 2 years old and we just recently got another puppy, Hank. He is now 10 weeks old and 15 lbs.  The breeder was feeding Diamond, and we switched Hank over to what we have always fed Archie, Fromm Grain Free all life stages. 

Anyway- went to the vet yesterday and she said he NEEDS to be on puppy large breed food WITH grains, and grain free is just a hype, etc.....  I also asked about  feeding until he is full or limiting it to the recomended amount. She said he should be getting 900 calories per day.  So i looked on Eukanuba website for LBP food to see their calorie recomendation and it is like 1,300!!!! So i am even more mad... Questions:

1) Is FROMM GRAIN FREE ok for puppies??? The ratio of calcium/phosphorus is 1.25 i think which is recomeneded (I have been stressing over this and googling way too much) 

2) is LBP any better an ALS for puppies (he will get prob 70 lbs or so) 

3) thoughts on grains??? 

Thank you!

I apparently have no clue what I am doing with these posts. Hopefully this third time is a charm!!!!!!!! please anyone help me, I am so stressed out now. Freaking out that Archie my older dog is going to have major problems from being on  the Fromm ALS grain free forever.

Please read from bottom up (sorry I posted in a different location!) Is my question, then the response I got from Fromm =( what do I do?!?!!? The puppy food has chicken. Isnt chicken an allergen???  She is recomending Purina, Hiills and Science Diet- of course. 

My response from Fromm to my large breed v ALS questions: 

Thank you for your email and in choosing Fromm Family Pet Foods.

While the Four-Star Nutritionals recipes are proven to be for all life stages, these foods may not be the best choice for a young puppy or a young large breed puppy. It is important to realize that puppies are very much like infants from the standpoint that their digestive system is very immature and has very limited capabilities. Fromm Puppy Gold and Large Breed Puppy Gold are specifically formulated considering these limited capabilities and aid in preventing excessive metabolic and physiological stress, which may cause some digestive inconsistencies. Once the puppy reaches their mature state, you may then begin to introduce a variety of Fromm Family adult foods to see which ones are the best match.

 

There’s no denying a large or giant breed has unique needs for nutrition because of their large size and growth patterns. Fromm Large Breed Puppy is created especially to accommodate these needs, offering a great nutritional option that will help them to mature properly without the concerns of growing too fast or developing joint issues etc. 

 

At the point you are currently at, we would encourage you to follow your veterinarian's advice.  The younger puppy should be introduced to the Large Breed Puppy Gold for the first 18 - 24 months of age and then to a Four-Star recipe. Since you have already passed the 24 month mark for your older dog, you can stay with any recipe you wish.  We are happy to hear you had success with the Four-Star Grain Free at a very young age through growth and development, while it would not be our general recommendation, there are many pet owners who use it very successfully.

 

Fromm features an unconditional satisfaction guarantee. If you are not satisfied with your purchase or your dog does not like the recipe, you can receive a full refund to try a new recipe. Simply retain the itemized purchase receipt (credit card receipt not valid) and the UPC / Proof-of-purchase. If for any reason you or your dog are not 100% completely satisfied you can send both the itemized receipt and UPC to us via US mail for a cash refund of your purchase price. Your retailer may also have an exchange / refund policy so please inquire with them as well.

MY INITIAL QUESTION 

Hi all, I havnt posted to hear in a long time!! Archie is now over 2 years old and we just recently got another puppy, Hank. He is now 10 weeks old and 15 lbs.  The breeder was feeding Diamond, and we switched Hank over to what we have always fed Archie, Fromm Grain Free all life stages. 

Anyway- went to the vet yesterday and she said he NEEDS to be on puppy large breed food WITH grains, and grain free is just a hype, etc.....  I also asked about  feeding until he is full or limiting it to the recomended amount. She said he should be getting 900 calories per day.  So i looked on Eukanuba website for LBP food to see their calorie recomendation and it is like 1,300!!!! So i am even more mad... Questions:

1) Is FROMM GRAIN FREE ok for puppies??? The ratio of calcium/phosphorus is 1.25 i think which is recomeneded (I have been stressing over this and googling way too much) 

2) is LBP any better an ALS for puppies (he will get prob 70 lbs or so) 

3) thoughts on grains??? 

Thank you!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

With all due respect to Fromm's customer service department, Marion Nestle (PhD Professor of nutrition) has repeatedly said that "large breed" and "puppy" formulas are more a marketing gimmick than a nutritional necessity, and most authorities on canine nutrition will confirm that dogs don't need to be eating grains ever, at any life stage. They are providing nothing but calories, and any carbohydrate source provides the same thing that grains do. 

Be aware also that formulas designed for "large breeds" are really meant for the giant breeds like Great Danes and Wolfhounds that do not reach full skeletal growth until they are 18-24 months old.  That's what the Fromm rep is referring to with that stuff about "unique needs, growth patterns, and joint problems". 

Relax, your older dog is not going to have any kind of problems related to what he ate as a puppy. Think of all the puppies who are never fed any kind of commercial food. There are people who feed homemade diets, cooked or raw, or commercial raw diets, from a very young age. As long as the puppy is getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and calories he needs to support his growth, he'll be fine. 

 The vet doesn't know she is talking about, which is not surprising, because there is no nutrition curriculum in vet school and everything vets know about food & feeding comes courtesy of the Purina & Hills salespeople.

Most of us here have learned to ignore our vets advice about food.

He absolutely does not need grains, he does not need a "large breed" formula, and he does not need a "puppy" formula. Stick with what you're feeding. 

With all due respect to Fromm's customer service department, Marion Nestle (PhD Professor of nutrition) has repeatedly said that "large breed" and "puppy" formulas are more a marketing gimmick than a nutritional necessity, and most authorities on canine nutrition will confirm that dogs don't need to be eating grains ever, at any life stage. They are providing nothing but calories, and any carbohydrate source provides the same thing that grains do. 

Be aware also that formulas designed for "large breeds" are really meant for the giant breeds like Great Danes and Wolfhounds that do not reach full skeletal growth until they are 18-24 months old.  That's what the Fromm rep is referring to with that stuff about "unique needs, growth patterns, and joint problems". 

Relax, your older dog is not going to have any kind of problems related to what he ate as a puppy. Think of all the puppies who are never fed any kind of commercial food. There are people who feed homemade diets, cooked or raw, or commercial raw diets, from a very young age. As long as the puppy is getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and calories he needs to support his growth, he'll be fine. 

 The vet doesn't know she is talking about, which is not surprising, because there is no nutrition curriculum in vet school and everything vets know about food & feeding comes courtesy of the Purina & Hills salespeople.

Most of us here have learned to ignore our vets advice about food.

He absolutely does not need grains, he does not need a "large breed" formula, and he does not need a "puppy" formula. Stick with what you're feeding. 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Amen.

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

And Amen from me too....What Karen doesn't know abut dog nutrition isn't worth a toss and if she doesn't know she will tell you so and then go and look for answers based on scientific evidence or from vet specialists who have no vested interest in the sales of foods. Her information does not come from the marketing programs from large pet food manufacturers nor from anecdotal 'evidence' from owners and uncle Tom Cobbly and all. Vets can be great on medical stuff but the majority know nada about nutrition.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I ditto what Karen said.

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

This is an interesting discussion as I've been pondering a similar question about large breed puppy food due to Gracie's size and she was more than 15 lbs at 10 weeks. ;)

Karen, they don't need grains, but brown rice and oats, etc are ok if there is no allergy? Correct?
I did notice the lbp food to be a little more expensive, but not a whole lot. So, I was going to indulge in it. But, if I can save a few pennies on dog food, that means more that I can spend on prettys for Gracie. Lol

Also, I'm kind of mad at tsc because of the two suggested foods for puppies that they carry (and that you recommended that I look into) they only have the 6lb bag of wellness core puppy for $19.99. Talk about robbery. Plus she'd have that gone in like 3 days. Lol. The other Holistic brand they only had the adult version. Boo!
Anyway, there is a farm supply store not too far away and they carry the wellness brand as well as others. I'm going to go take a look to see if they have other brands as well on the recommended list.

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

Acana, which is one of the Champion labels do some varieties with oats that are more reasonably priced if you want to save money and your pup has no issues with that.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yes, the Acana Classics line is priced lower than most of their other foods and does contain oats. 

Here's a link to the line: http://www.acana.com/products/classics/

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Lyndy, if you can't get one of the recommended foods locally, you might consider ordering on-line. Lots of members here have been very satisfied with Chewy.com I think, and there are other good on-line sources as well.  

Some dogs do very well with foods containing rice, oats or barley. Others do better with grain free foods. 

When JD was young, I thought he was doing fine with healthy-grain foods. He had no digestive issues at all. Then his dermatologist recommended Orijen for other reasons, and the difference was like night and day. Stool volume decreased by half, and the stool was smaller and firmer than I would ever have thought possible, lol. of course, the protein content of his diet went up a lot, so the improvement was not only due to eliminating grains.But even though JD had no problems with formulas containing rice and other healthy grains, it turned out that he does much better with a higher protein, grain-free formula. 

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

Yeah, I order online when I have to. But, I'm a firm believer of shopping locally first if you can! It's not easy being in rural Indiana. :) I'm sure it's easier than being in rural Wyoming. ;)

I didn't even know that dogs have dermatologists. I'm always learning new things on DK!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are a lot of veterinary specialists. Hopefully, you will never need them. JD has a regular vet, a dermatologist, an internist, an orthopedic surgeon, a holistic vet who does his acupuncture, and next week he'll have a new specialist, a neurologist. 

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

Oh wow. It sounds like Jackdoodle has been through a lot.