Needs Immediate Food Advice

[Sooner Mom]

I am posting this question for a fellow doodle owner who has had her membership to doodle kisses pending and can't post it for herself.  She is beyond frustrated and about to give up on her 18 week old pup.  She says the dog came to her with diarrhea/loose stools 10 weeks ago.  Her vet has done extensive fecal testing, all negative.  He was put on antibiotics "just in case".  He was put on a prescription diet for a short time and probiotics for a long time.  He finally formed a soft stool using TOTW SIERRA Mountain Lamb.  Her vet told her lamb is the easiest on pups with sensitive stomachs.  She saw the vet last week for her last round of shots and reported that sometimes the stools are still too loose to pick up and asked if she could change to something to firm it up.  The vet said yes but recommended a lamb based formula.  She was told to try FROMM, Acana or Earthborn.  She felt Acana was too expensive and Fromm is not available locally for her.  She went with Earthborn puppy. This morning she gave a 25% Earthborn/75% TOTW serving.  The pup then had 3 stools, the third being "poo soup".  She was ready to cry.  She said now she does not know if she should go back to the TOTW 100% for the evening feeding or keep trying the mixture.  She has tried pumpkin, yogurt, rice and chicken in the past and said she saw no real improvement.  She said the pet store tried to sell her 12.00 firm up dried pumpkin but she didn't think it would be worth it if canned did not work.  Any advice for a fellow frazzled doodle owner?  I don't know this lady.  She reached out to me on another doodle site because I identified as a doodle kisses member.  Others had already directed her to this group but she has not been able to access it yet because of her pending status.  

[Shari Becker]

OKay, so first, it sounds like she is trying too many different things in a short period of time.  And perhaps, not giving the dog's stomach enough time to heal. I personally would go to pumpkin or mashed sweet potatoes and boiled, lean ground meat (beef, chicken or turkey)  and feed it to the puppy for at least a week - maybe two. I personally would also mix in a capsule of slippery elm (opened and in powdered form), and I'd continue the probiotics (we use proviable dc). When the dog's poops have been firm and formed for two or three days straight, I'd stop the slippery elm and then I'd stick with the pumpkin and meat for another 3-4 days. Some dogs cannot digest rice, so I would not use that at this point.  Once she has stabilized the dog's belly, she can slowly, slowly begin introducing foods. Personally, I would start with something super high quality, single protein even if it is just for a few months to get the puppy on track. Orijen and Acana are pricey at first glance, but you use so much less than other brands. The prices are deceptive. Also, be sure she knows that dog treats can make your dog's stomach upset. Lexi had loose poops every time  I gave here Zuke's treats. So she needs to address the treat ingredients (if any), too. Also, bully sticks make Lexi super sick, too. The puppy should ONLY be eating the food. No treats. Nothing. If she wants to reward it, give it a little piece of cooked sweet potato or boiled meat. That's my two cents. We've had a lot of trouble with Lexi's stomach, and it took a long time for us to get it right, but we always went back to boiled meat and sweet potatoes or pumpkin for days before going back and trying something new again. (For whatever it is worth, and it IS pricey, a lot of dogs do very well on Honest Kitchen. We're doing that now. It's a little gross at first, but it is very easy to digest...) Wish her luck!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Honest Kitchen is a great choice for dogs with digestive issues. I recommend the Embark formula, a lot of dogs with chronic loose stool issues have done very well with it. But it is extremely expensive. Perhaps this lady could try it temporarily? 

[Shari Becker]

That was my thinking. It's a good place to start. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, we have a whole bunch of issues going on here, and it would be a whole lot easier if the dog's owner were here, lol. I'm puzzled about her membership being "pending", since it's my understanding that it's instantaneous. But I'll give it a shot.

The problem originates with the antibiotics, and the fact that this lady is following diet advice from a person who has had absolutely no formal nutritional education, her vet. 

The antibiotic was most likely metronidazole (Flagyl), which destroys all of the good gut bacteria necessary for proper stool formation along with bad bacteria, and should never be given without a confirmed diagnosis of an infection or parasite. Probiotics are good, but we don't know which one she was using (hopefully not Purina's Fortiflora from the vet), and we don't know if they were given properly or for a long enough period of time. Probiotics must be given separately from the antibiotics by at least two hours, and longer is better. This is something few vets tell their clients. In addition, the probiotics must be continued for a few weeks after the meds are discontinued. 

So the first thing she needs to do is order Proviable DC, which is an excellent probiotic. In the meantime, she can give the dog 2-3 tablespoons of plain unflavored nonfat yogurt twice a day. 

Now on to the food.

With all due respect to the vet, it's a ridiculous idea that lamb is easiest on pups with sensitive stomachs, and there is no scientific basis for that idea. It stems from the fact that years ago, most dogs ate chicken or beef based diets, and lamb was rare in dog food. When there is some suspicion that a dog's digestive issues stem from an intolerance to a particular food, you try feeding them a limited ingredient diet with a protein source that they have never had before. In the past, that was often lamb, and many diets for sensitive stomachs were lamb based. However, that's no longer the case; lots and lots of dogs eat lamb, and there is nothing about lamb that makes it any easier on the digestive system than any other protein. So forget the lamb. 

We no longer recommend TOTW in this group, because it is owned and made by Diamond Foods. But even if it were a recommended brand, it's a completely inappropriate food for any dog with digestive issues. Dogs with digestive issues need very simple, limited ingredient diets that contain a single protein source and as few ingredients as possible. Fromm would also not be a good choice because they do not make an LID formula, either, although it's an excellent brand. Without knowing which Earthborn formula she is feeding, I can't tell if that's a good choice or not, but most likely not. And certainly, mixing it with TOTW is a huge mistake. That's just adding more variables to the situation. Whatever she feeds, it can't be mixed with anything. 

I can't address the issue of not being able to afford Acana, lol. All of their formulas are not priced the same, so I think it would be well worth her taking a look at them. They have a line of LID formulas, Acana Singles, that would be good choices. My other recommendations would be the Wellness Simple Solutions line, which is not inexpensive either. ANY of their formulas is fine, it doesn't have to be lamb, but they do have a lamb based formula.

But keep in mind that it doesn't matter what food the dog eats if there is a bacterial imbalance in the gut. That's what has to be corrected. 

So for now, I would feed this puppy a bland diet consisting of 50/50 mix of plain boiled white meat chicken, finely cut, and mashed sweet potatoes. This homemade diet has only about half the calories of most kibbles, so she is going to have to feed twice as much of it as she normally feeds kibble.  I personally would also add a quarter tsp of plain psyllium fiber (Konsyl is the brand name but there are generics available at most drugstores, she just needs to be certain that there are no flavorings added) to each meal for fiber. She should give the yogurt until she gets the Proviable, but she needs to get it soon, because that's what is going to restore a good balance of gut bacteria. Once the stool starts to firm up, she can gradually reintroduce kibble. But it must be an LID formula, as I suggested above.

If she can't do the homemade diet for some reason, she can try getting the LID kibble now and giving that. But tell her not to mix it. 

And NO treats or chews of any kind. (We also have no idea what kinds of other foods this pup is getting in the way or treats) Tell her to use plain pieces of boiled chicken for training treats in the meantime. 

Hope this helps.

[Shari Becker]

Ha ha ha! Karen, you and I are on the same page!!!! We know ... all too well ... 

[Sooner Mom]

So helpful! Thanks everyone. I will pass this on to her. I don't know but my initial membership to Doodle Kisses was not instantaneous either. At least I did not know about it for awhile. To joins groups within, it has seemed very quick. Thanks so much.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I wanted to clarify that is she chooses to try Wellness brand, it MUST be one of the Wellness Simple Solutions formulas, and not just any Wellness food. We need to always look at formula and not just brand. 

In the Acana line it must be something in the Singles line. 

[Adina P]

Ever since we had a big issue with spammers, I changed membership from instant to requiring approval. So it isn't instant access membership to the whole site.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Ah, that explains it. 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Good idea.