dog training aka Katie is mad at me

[Stacy]

Katie is almost a year and I'm still having some bratty behavior issues. Eating everything, stealing everything, beating up on the little dog, biting (not agressively, but still!), eating everything (that one deserves to go on there twice.) So I hired a ridiculously expensive dog trainer to come to the house with an electronic collar and help us. 

The good news is that since he was here on Monday she hasn't eaten anything including the little dog. And she does exactly what I'm asking her to do. I'm kind of amazed in the change in her behavior. There's no more biting me or trying to pull my clothes off when I'm on the phone. And we still have 2 more lessons.

The bad news is that she's completely depressed and pouty. She's not being hurt. I'm using this thing on the lowest setting there is. In fact I've had it on my hand and my neck and I can't feel it at all. But she is completely breaking my heart with her sad little self. I don't know what to do. I can call the trainer, but he warned me that she might be pouty for a while. I just didn't expect this.

Does anyone have any advice? Am I being cruel to dogs and breaking her little spirit forever? Should I keep doing what we're doing and expect the pouting to resolve? Or give up and try something different? I admit that I do like her behavior. I just hate seeing her so sad.

Thanks! Stacy 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Take a look at the link I posted for the Nothing in Life is Free program on the next page. It may be just what you need. 

[Lori, Quincy & Frankie]

I don't have the knowledge or experience to guide you, but will say that I feel so bad for you!  I know you will get some guidance from others, but I will add my good thoughts for a happy outcome! 

[Stacy]

Thanks, Lori! Things already seem better this afternoon. Maybe she really did just need a full 48 hours to get used to the new normal. She's my love. If nothing else she has caused me to be much more dilligent in putting my things away!

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

My question would be what type of professional training has she had prior to this?  What all have you tried that didn't supposedly work?  

[Stacy]

She went to a positive reinforcement class. And when I asked what to do about Katie picking on the 13 year old little dog (Katie 25 pounds, little dog 4 1/2 pounds) I was told to just let them work it out themselves. The trainer didn't have any other suggestion even when I told her that little dog doesn't have any teeth and has already had 2 broken legs in her life. I'm seriously at the point where I was afraid Katie would accidentally kill her. Katie grabs her by the tail and 1. tried to pull her up onto the couch and dropped her on her head. 2. Drags her out the doggy door. 3. Drags her across the room like a chew toy. She stomps on her, she chews on her, she lays on top of her. And the solution was to let them work it out themselves.

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

I think that you could really benefit from signing up and taking some basic obedience classes.  Then an intermediate and then an advanced.  You are going to learn so much in these classes yourself on how to handle Katie.  The reason I say this is because when you sign up for a class and you know you have to go the next week it forces you to follow through with your homework and your training.  I would also suggest that you sign up for Doggy Dan the OnLine Dog Trainer that Jane mentions.  The thing that I love about his site is he teaches you "How to Become The Pack Leader" first and formost.  Until you are seen as the pack leader in your Katie's eyes she isn't going to listen to you.  Yes you can keep a shock collar on her the rest of her life and she will maybe listen, but she is going to get used to the shocks and you are going to have to increase them etc.  Also, what if she were to get out without the collar on ... is she going to listen to you when you call her to come back?  Most likely not.  Most of the behaviors that you are talking about above are puppy behaviors.  My AnnaBelle is two and what you describe above is exactly how she plays with our Lucy who is 5 years older than she is.  The difference is Lucy is 80 lbs so she can't pick her up and drop her on her head, but the bigger difference is that Lucy will take it as long as she likes and then she will put AnnaBelle in her place an AnnaBelle listens to her.  Obviously your little one isn't an Alpha type dog and hasn't growled and put Katie in her place, which is unfortunate.  I would also suggest maybe more exercise away from the little puppy.  Lots of off leash time somewhere to run or maybe some doggie day care where she gets exhausted and doesn't have that need to play with the little one.  I'd make some safe spots for the little one as well where she can go when she wants to get away from Katie.  My opinion is Katie doesn't need a shock collar.  She needs to see you as her leader and your need to understand how to tell her what you expect her to do and how you expect her to behave.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, that was just an incompetent trainer. The class or program is only as good as the trainer.

I don't believe that there is one type of training method or philosophy that works for every dog. I'm also not opposed to aversion methods for some dogs. But I do think that whatever training method you use has to be fair to the dog, and if it's a good solid program, it also builds a bond between you and your dog. Some members here have mentioned Doggy Dan. There's also a training philosophy called Nothing In Life Is Free, which is very effective for dogs who seem to think they are in charge and don't have to listen to you; it doesn't involve physical punishment, it's more about lifestyle changes. Take a look, this is something you can do starting right now: http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

Training is a life-long process; you work with your dog every day, and every day the bond between you grows, and the trust between you deepens. :) 

[Rhoda and Asta]

I can't really give you any advice because I do not agree with aversion training. But, there are several dog owners at the dog park that I frequent who use the e-collar (trainers, ex-military, active police). I thought that the collar is used to get the dog's attention before you issue a command. Kinda like saying "look at me, I want you to do something. " I thought the idea was to train the dog to focus on you and to be ready to execute any command.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I guess what is worrying me is that I'm afraid that Katie might have been shutting down.  I think that I'm reading that that is getting better, but "depressed and pouty" for a puppy less than one year is concerning to me.  When dogs are feeling something aversive and they don't know why, they feel that things are out of control, and some of them just give up while others become reactive.  They need to feel that their owners are not causing them pain or discomfort for no reason...that just breeds distrust.  I know you have tried it on yourself, but there is something about this stimulation that is making Katie feel frightened or uncomfortable or you would not have seen that type of change in her behavior.

[Jessica, Loki and Moose]

Does Katie get sad when she doesn't get her way normally? I only ask because my oldest doodle gets very very pouty if he doesn't get his way even with simple things like wanting more food, more treats, more snuggles, more of a walk, and he's not a deprived dog at all, he just displays his emotions crystal clear. I guess I ask because if she typically reacts that way when everything isn't perfect then maybe she does just need to adjust that this is how things are. For example, I just moved and my older dog hates were his dog bed is- he tries to drag it down the stairs so it's right in front of the door and pouts when I pull it away from the door (so he doesn't get hit when people come over-lol!) but he's getting used to the fact that it has to be up stairs in the living spaces and is pouting less and less. Idk just thought i would throw this out there, I am no expert in dog training and in fact have never consulted a private trainer so i can't offer much help but I hope things get better for you and Katie either way :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Here's an article that outlines the pros and cons of e-collar training.  The last point about what it can do to trust is what has been worrying me the most.  Again, I am not trying to be judgmental.  I just want to be sure that you are totally informed before making such a significant decision.  Also please remember your trainer will tell you lots of things because he is selling his method.  Of course, you need to make the decision that you think is best for you and for Katie, but you posted here so I'm thinking you were looking for input.  Here's the link....http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-shock-collar-good-bad

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I don't think aversion training is only bad.   When training is done properly it works - whatever the training.  I know  many of us are not into shocking a dog as part of training, but hunting dogs are trained this way and they seem fine so . . . .  only my two cents worth.  I think it extremely important that you administer the 'shocks' properly as you are taught and not over use.   We had to resort to electronic bark collars for our dogs  in our RV and I only wish I had done it sooner and saved myself a lot of angst.