Genetics and Facial Furnishings-HELP!

[Annette Wade]

Ok... I'm really hoping someone on here can help me out or can direct me to someone who can. I have been looking for answers for a long time and every time I run a Google inquiry I get this forum. Well, today I decided to join and ask. I own American Cockapoos... not exactly the same kind of doodle this forum is about, but a doodle nonetheless. I adore my little fluffballs. This is what I want to know: Do all poodles possess facial furnishings?

 

I have read multiple times that facial furnishings are a dominant trait. Trying not to be too complex but in short I am wondering how the heck first generation doodle blends could possibly lack facial furnishings and the wiry coat of the poodle if this trait (which is apparently linked) is genuinely a dominant trait??

If poodles all have facial furnishings and "breed true" then wouldn't all F1 doodle blends have facial furnishings and wire coats and be carriers for the smooth face as retrievers (and Cockers) never have this gene?

 

If anyone knows please tell me!! I'm so confused! The only thing I can think of is that poodles do not all have facial furnishings and are therefore possibly carriers of the recessive trait. It is nearly impossible to tell because the vast majority of poodles have their faces shaved, so pictures don't help me and I have been asking poodle breeders whenever I can (email or in person at shows, etc) but unfortunately poodle breeders all seem to think that hybrids are an abomination and they won't talk to me (and often look like they'd like to spit on me)

 

Ok, thanks guys,

Annette

Oh-and here are a few pictures of my cuties, just to be a pet-parent and share as I feel compelled to do ;-)

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

I found this discussion which may or may not be of help, it's very confusing one way or another!

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/smooth-goldendoodle

[Nadia]

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but thought I would give it a try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_(dog)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

From what I understand, the genes controlling poodle's coats have what is called incomplete dominance: Here is a definition:

 Definition: Incomplete dominance is a form of intermediate inheritance in which one allele for a specific trait is not completely dominant over the other allele. This results in a third phenotype in which the expressed physical trait is a combination of the dominant and recessive phenotypes.

http://biology.about.com/od/geneticsglossary/g/incompletedom.htm

There are three separate genes responsible for furnishings(wire coat), curl, and length of coat in dogs. They are passed separately, meaning that a dog can have a long curly coat but no furnishings, or furnishings and a long coat with no curl, or any combination thereof. Here's an explanation of the genetics behind furnishings: http://www.animalgenetics.us/ABIUKNew/horse-dna/canine/Hair%20Furni...

Here's another article which mentions the fact that all first cross labradoodles and goldendoodles are obligate carriers of the "improper coat", i.e. lack of furnishings: http://www.optigen.com/opt9_impropercoat.html

Of course, this still doesn't answer the question of how, if the W locus for wire coat/ furnishings is dominant, a first generation poodle cross would not always have furnishings, since all poodles do have them. (And I'm pretty sure all poodles do, shaved faces or not. If anyone can find a poodle without them, I'd like to see that.) It's easy to see how they would be absent in a doodle with retriever on both sides, but I understand your confusion about it in F1s; it's quite puzzling. It must be that it's possible for a poodle to have only one copy of the gene for furnishings, in which case the furnishings would be expressed in the poodle but might be absent in the offspring if the other parent did not pass a gene for furnishings: the "carrier" example in the optigen improper coat article I linked.  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This article is way over my head, but if anyone can decipher it, it might contain some answers: http://www.patentdocs.org/2009/08/the-genetic-basis-of-coat-variati...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Have we actually seen an F1 without furnishings? 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I don't think so, but perhaps we should ask in the Where's the Poodle in my Doodle" group - which I will do right now.  Just sent a message to the members of that group with a link to this discussion and asked them to post the generation of their doodle

[Tiffany Kennedy]

I know this is an old discussion but I have an F1 and at 10 weeks he has no facial furnishings. (been on my mind and have been searching myself to see if he will get them). I had my heart set on the goldendoodle for this particular reason. Anyways, here's a photo. It seems at his age it's hard to tell what will happen but he is so loved regardless of having  facial furnishings or not.

[Stella]

10 weeks is too young to know if he is going to be bearded or not. My F1 LD and my multi-gen didn't have much face scruff as puppies, both now have beards that need trimming!!

[Tiffany Kennedy]

Music to my ears! I hope something similar happens with Duncan (your dogs are BOTH so precious!). With this info it doesn't seem I'm finding any F1's with the open face like him.

[Jessica, Loki and Moose]

Both of my doodles are F1 bernedoodles and they did not have as open of a face as yours but they really "furried" out as they got older, there's a couple pictures of them on my page. I attached one of them from a few days ago, the one on the left is 6months and the one on the right is 1 1/2 years. Both have the same parents. Hope this helps, your baby is so adorable!

[Jessica, Loki and Moose]

Here's the picture sorry!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Cute doodles and baby. Genetics are complicated and so just the idea of one gene, which is dominant or recessive,  is not  applicable in this case and it often isn't that simple. The article Karen posted makes a point that coat and furnishings are determined by at least 3 genes and various combinations result in differing outcomes. The next to the last paragraph explains this.