E-collar Training

[Laura Bogar]

Ok I dont even want to post this because people might see me as a bad mom and inhumane, I am so afraid to post this in other groups I am apart of. I am thinking to start a training course with Sit Means Sit and they use their own e-collars. I am not new to training my reactive doodle and have seen all the bashing about how horrible some people see e-collars. I am really not looking for any bashing so I guess please don't leave a comment if you don't have any positive insight. Sorry to be so straight forward. If anyone uses e-collars please let me know what you have experienced and what I need to know and if you like them. Anything! Of course we will be working with a trainer for an hour to show me exactly how I should use it. I would mainly like to use it so we can go on peaceful walks, go to the dog park again, go to restaurants, and even be able to hike the trail off leash.

thanks,

Laura 

[Gwyndolyn Morasko]

Fortunately, my only experience (second hand witness) with e-collars is very positive.  So positive that I also bought one for my pups to help with recall so that I can eventually take my pups to an open beach and let them run and romp until I ask them to come back.  I would say that you'll need to invest in more than a single training session though.  I know lots of people who did "board and train" for many weeks and their pups weren't traumitized by the e-collar and are very happy, fun, playful dogs, and who respond to the sound and vibration settings great.  My niece has a 120 pound doodle with 4 kids and a foster child.  She sent him to board and train before taking in the foster child to help with his jumping up on adults habit.  He was more of a toy for the little ones, but she didn't want to take any chances that he would also start jumping on little kids, so she needed an extremely well trained dog to pass the home inspections.  He is an hilarious big goof of a dog, and the e-collar training worked great.  

I have a huge family of hunters with huge farms and yards in Montana, and all of their labs, and springer spaniels are e-collar trained and none are traumitized.  But they all did very thorough and consistent training.  Thats why I haven't used mine yet.  I haven't been able to carve out the time for proper training.  But I am still a big fan and would recommend them for recall.  It is amazing to watch those labs respond and come back from half a mile away while hunting birds when the owners tell them to give up looking and come back.  No shock needed.  Just the vibration level.  That is my goal, to always be able to just use the tone and vibration settings.  

[Kimberly and Mikey]

I am looking into one again for Mikey for recall but this time done the correct way. I'm going to try for s board and train for the collar

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Please be careful of the board and train for those collars.  The internet is full of horror stories about some of these board and train programs that use e-collars.  Ask for references.

[Laura Bogar]

Thank you :)

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I have used an e-collar successfully with Roo.  It was extremely helpful in training him. I went to LaCanada to Beyond the Leash, I believer they have moved to one of the New England states.  Roo was about 8-10 months and quite a handful.  very reactive to everything and anything, and friendly to a fault.  Here is the gist of what I learned and how I used it.

First, the dog must have the collar put on first thing every morning, removed when left or crated and then again at bedtime.  Otherwise he wears the collar all the time.  They need to be recharged every night.  I needed to always have the remote with me in a pocket or someway out of sight.

First I needed to hold it in the palm of my hand as the trainer hit the remote at increasingly larger pokes.  Then I had to close my hand with the collar in the palm will he used the hardest poke and held it down.  At no time did it hurt, although, I could always feel it.  It is not nearly as noticeable as having your nerve conductivity tested by a doctor, which isn't painful really just weird.

For teaching commands it was set as low as possible (very low), the trainer will show you how to tell if the little poke is going through to your dog. Each time you give a command, you "poke" your dog.  I was only trained to turn up the "poke" if Roo began to ignore both the command and the "poke'.  I did not need to do this, ever.  The trainer also showed how to use a harder, longer poke for dealing with "quiet" for barking and trash stealing.  It was an enormous help to me in training Roo.  Roo wore the e-collar daily for probably about a year.  

At the same time Tigger was about 3-4 months old.  Tigger is a much mellower doodle, not reactive or overly friendly. I used the same trainer to train Tigger, who was a piece of cake on all the basic commands and I never needed to use an e-collar on him.  I did use a no-bark e-collar on him briefly (maybe 4 weeks) around 8 months, just to stop the barking at the gate.

Both of my dogs passed CGC, both are good with all the basic commands.  EXCEPT - Roo has a good (not excellent) recall which I credit to the e-collar.  Tigger has only a fair to awful recall -never used to the e-collar to teach him.  Roo is not a trash or sock stealer.  Tigger is.

Short answer, I think you are a good thoughtful dog owner to consider using an e-collar and knowing you need a trainer to learn to do it correctly.  Some dogs just do better with an e-collar.  Used properly it is just an attention getter for dogs who need it.  I use a prong collar on Tigger for walks and a gentle leader on Roo.  The prong collar just didn't work for Roo and the gentle leader was like a miracle. 

[Laura Bogar]

Wow! thank you so much! I am just lost at where to go next. Its so hard seeing all these invites to outings and other people going everywhere with their dog when my dog is just too crazy to take anywhere where there might be another dog.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I do know just how you feel.  I've never been able to take Murphy to a "romp" or any outing where he would have to be on leash around other dogs...it's just to hard on him and me.  His recall is actually great, so if it's not somewhere dangerous I've sometimes just dropped the leash....that solves the problem.  Repetition also helps with Murphy.  He used to go crazy during "drop off" and "pick up" at Daycare because he was leashed going in and out and there were lots of other dogs coming and going also on leashes.  He has now done it enough that there is no fear reaction and he walks in calmly.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Laura, perhaps you could find a trainer if you look for trainers of hunting dogs who use the e-collar method.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

This discussion has really started me thinking about why the Gentle Leader has been the most effective collar for Murphy.  I have used collars that enabled me to give "corrections" when teaching him to heel or sit/down, and with no other dogs around there was no problem.  It is only in situations where he is dog reactive, that a collar that gives corrections makes the situation worse.  Again, I believe that's because it escalates his fear and he totally loses control.  With the Gentle Leader you really can't "correct".  It enables you to control his head, and so I can turn his head away from the other dog.  If he can't actually see the dog his reactiveness is tempered.  I had never put that together before. 

[Judith and Addie]

Jane, Thank you so much for explaining so well Murphy's reactivity. My doodle, Addie, is similar in that she is fear leash reactive. She also goes to day care where they did not even realize that she has any reactivity, until I took a course offered on the premise and she was on-leash with just one other dog. I want to reiterate your point that, especially with our fear reactive dogs, we should watch very closely how they respond to training techniques. I know that Addie is sensitive enough that if I goof and raise my voice (tone of voice actually) she will respond fearfully.

[Missy]

Laura,

I am a user of e-collar.  As a new dog owner, I am not sure what one means by reactive doodle.  But I will tell you of my experience and how much I love my e-collar.

Our pup was 4 months when we started the introduction to e-collar.  From day one which the pup was 9 weeks of age, I started training commands. At first, he just wore the collar to get accustom to it.  The first Shock happened at 4 months.

my favorite bookhttp://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Primer-Patricia-B-McConnell/dp/1891767135/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446211715&sr=8-1&keywords=puppy+primer

The key thing is to use the e-collar as a corrective tool, NOT a training tool.   We purchased a Garmin e-collar that has options of tone, vibrate, or shock. 

We made sure that our pup understood commands, starting with SIT.  and working our way to STAY.  (again the book is so helpful, even giving hand signals with commands)  The first time we used it: we were out in the yard. A neighbor walked by, and I asked the dog for a SIT.  He did not respond.  I rang the TONE on e-collar and asked for a SIT again.  Dog sat. ( your trainer will work with you to help you time the command to TONE)  It is all about reminding the dog of the command they heard, and doing the command. You have to show follow through on every command, every time! These dogs are smart, and if you give an inch, they will take a mile!!

Which I will add here that to get a dog to come to you on a command is a very long process!  Sit, Stay are easy and achievable.  COME takes time!! (again, see the book!) 

Granted, there have been times when the dog goes into the RED zone and a SHOCK is necessary. (see a squirrel or cat) Again, used only as a corrective tool, as one would do if the pup was on a leash with a quick jerk on the leash.   If you think of the ecollar that way, you will love the freedom this gives you.

Why I love it so much.  We travel. Our pup loves to RUN.  At new places, I always walk the boundaries on a leash with pup.  Letting him know 'this is the line'.  Then, I can put the e-collar on and let him off leash to run. (someone's yard or dog park)  We do not walk in neighborhoods without a leash. (too many dangers: cars, people, other dogs). I would caution it will take some time before you are able to walk on a city street or restaurant without a leash and only an e-collar.   We do walk on trails off the leash with e-collar. We have a lake house, and we even swim with the e-collar!!  But there are always times when only a leash will do!    

Granted, we worked daily on commands for 12 months! And even at 2.5 years, we continue to reinforce commands and hand signals.  My dog knows to look to me for commands.  I can be across a field or room of people and put the dog in a sit or lay down with hand signals.  Are there times he won't? YES!  They are dogs, in my opinion. Always testing!!

How does our pup like the e-collar? Well, he knows when I grab it, he get's to go outside and is excited as one would expect when you pull out the leash. 

I love being able to go outside with my dog, hold onto my cup of coffee, and the dog is able to sniff and play at his own pace.  We live between two houses and neither have fences.  And most of the family/friends houses do not have fences.  The e-collar really creates freedom for me personally (I am not attached to a leash) and freedom for our dog, who loves to run!  Play time is FUN FUN not being tangled in ropes or leashes.

hope that helps answer some questions.

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Finn was never aggressively"reactive" on the leash but he was over-exhuberant, trying to pull me wherever he wanted to go.  At the suggestion of our trainer, I put him on a gentle leader and it worked like a miracle.  Once he realized his limitations, he seemed better able to focus and learned he was rewarded for walking at my side. Transitioning him to a flat collar for testing was a bit challenging but we did it.  Today I rarely use it. I worked with a foster lab-mix that was dog aggressive on the leash (but not off-leash) and a easy leader harness with the ring on the front worked for her, combined with repetition and rewards.  I wonder if you've considered either of these, not that I have anything against e-collars when used in a thoughtful experienced way - especially for something like recall. I've thought about using it for something like that, although I've never been able to carve out the time like Gwndolyn says and FInn's recall is pretty good -- but it could be better. It's interesting to hear others experience here. Where I would draw the line is at sending a dog away to a board and train. I know people who have done it and are pleased but also have heard of some nasty surprises.