An update on Woody & possible long term effects of metronidazole

[Jill, Woody & Maxi]

I am one of the many owners whose puppy (now 3 years old!) came home from the breeder at 8 weeks with loose stools, diarrhea, pudding poop, whichever you would like to call it.  After weeks of negative fecals, we finally received a positive fecal for giardia.  Our first vet prescribed a course of metro, which temporarily cleared it up, then, back again to diarrhea. Course after course of metro, hills I/D food, a prescription of clay (what was I thinking?!?!) 2 vet changes, more metro, (finally) Panacur..and then my breeder told me about Doodlekisses.  By this point, Woody was 5 months old, so this treatment has been going on for 3 months, with no resolve.  To make a long story short, after DK, and the help of Karen and friends I learned about the importance of a quality dog food, and the importance of treatment for giardia.  Throughout those 3 months, never once did I (or was I told by a vet) to give a probiotic..so Woody had 3 months of metro kill the bad bacteria in Woodys intestines…along with the good bacteria.  We tried all quality foods, and nothing would work..until The Honest Kitchen, Embark..and even then things still weren't perfect…we were finding pieces of undigested food in his stools.  After a bout of acute pancreatitis (from adding ground lean turkey to his Embark) We finally decided we need to take this further than our regular vet.  

We made an appointment at Cornell University Animal Hospital, where we found out Woody has an inflammatory bowel condition of his digestive tract that was causing diarrhea and preventing complete digestion of his food. In inflammatory bowel disease, the body's immune system attacks either proteins from the diet or self antigens or normal bacterial flora in the GI tract. The bowel wall becomes inflitrated with inflammatory cells and the result is destruction of villi and thickening of the bowel wall. This prevents normal uptake and digestion of food and leads often to diarrhea and weight loss. 

Inflammatory bowel disease can be grouped into three catagories: food responsive, antibiotic responsive, and steroid responsive. We are lucky enough, that Woody has fallen into the category of food responsive.  We have been home cooking for him full-time for well over a year now. I have a system where I buy in bulk, take one 4 hour period out of one day of the week, and prepare about 7-10 days worth of food, which I freeze, then take out during the week.  It is simple, now that I have a system.  This will now be a life long commitment, which I am more than happy to do..being that he is responding so well to it (we just had our follow up appointment, and all of his labs came back great!)

My point of this discussion is that you have to be your own advocate.  If I had the knowledge that I learned here on DK…who knows? Maybe this could have all been avoided.  Please, don't ever let your vet give you medicine without a good reason, and KNOW the side effects, and what you can do to avoid them..in the case of Woody, maybe taking a probiotic from the beginning would've helped?

So a BIG THANK YOU to all that have helped along the way..and please, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask!

[Jill, Woody & Maxi]

That is great news…I hope he continues to do well with the food switch!

[Gretchen Nastrom]

I thought I'd give you guys another quick update on Preston, now that we have things under control!  We ended up on another round of Proviable just to clear things up because his stools were still a bit soft after the first round.  Now he is transitioned to the Wellness and doing great.  The only treats we give him are carrots and fresh fruit (he loves blueberries and apples).  Now it will be a test at Thanksgiving to see if my family abides by the "no people food no matter how cute those brown eyes are" rule.

Thank you, Jill and Karen for your advice.  I feel like we have things under control and maybe my husband will consider a 2nd doodle for us (this will be a work in progress!)

[Nancy and Georgia Brown]

Thanks for sharing your story.
This website, and Karen in particular, probably saved my dog from going down a similar path.

[Jill, Woody & Maxi]

:)

[Jill, Woody & Maxi]

Gretchen that is great news! Im glad to hear things are working for Preston.  Don't be afraid to lay down the law to family members..they will eventually get it! Good luck with everything…especially with thinking about adding another!! :)

Thanks for keeping us posted 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

 Great news Gretchen, thank you for updating us! 

I agree with laying down the law. Tell the family that anyone caught giving the dog people food can pay the vet bills when he gets sick from it

[Lisa, Daisy & Dexter]

OMD, Gretchen's story has hit me hard! I have no idea what went on with Dex when he was a baby but after being healthy until now I fear he has a bad tummy too. It breaks my heart that he lost the weight and I didn't recognize as he is also a "lean" boy.

We went out and got the Wellness Simple Solutions, Salmon and Sweet Potato yesterday. He is on and has been on  a Pro-biotic for quite sometime (Vetri Probiotic Everyday, since Karen told me to try that for Daisy when she had a bout of illness way back when). Currently he is on the Vet prescribed Pro-biotic (IAMS Prostora Max) but he only has 3 chewables left so will switch him back.

Mike is nervous about not giving him the IAMS Intestinal Plus but I am moving ahead with the Wellness, especially after being awoken 2 times in the middle of the night to go potty. I am going to have him sit down and read this post so he will not fight me on it.

If it weren't for the weight loss I would not be freaking out...I feel so helpless.

:-(

Thanks for all your help Karen and to everyone who cares enough to post for others.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Lisa, I sent you this message before I realized you had posted this here in this discussion, so I'm going to post what I wrote you here for educational purposes. You never know who else may be having these issues and will benefit from the info: 

Would it help convince Mike if I give you list of the ingredients in the Iams food and a corresponding analysis/description of what they are? Would it help if I spoke to him? Or to you, and he can listen in? 

Would it help if I give you the chapters of Marion Nestle's (PhD & professor emeritus of nutrition at NYU) book in which she documents the fact the vets receive absolutely no nutrition training in vet school, and that the influence of the big dog food companies (Iams, Hill's, Purina) completely colors their recommendations? 

Prostora is crap. The best canine probiotic out there is Proviable, which you will need to order online. Look at the ingredients in Prostora:

Sucrose, Vegetable Oil, Bifidobacterium animalis, Dried Skim Milk, Dried Reduced Minerals Whey, Cocoa Butter, Artificial Colors, Soy Lecithin (emulsifier), Artificial Vanilla Flavor.

So we have sugar as the first ingredient, then oil, then ONE source of good bacteria, which is what you're giving probiotics for in the first place, then dried milk, dried whey (milk product), cocoa butter, artificial coloring, soy, and artificial flavorings. You're putting all that sugar, artificial colors and flavors, soy and milk products into a dog just for ONE strain of beneficial bacteria???? And this is what the vet thinks constitutes a good probiotic? That alone should convince Mike the vet isn't knowledgeable about this. 

As for feeling bad, JD lost 15% of his body weight in 3 and a half weeks and was literally starving to death before my vet finally sent me to the IMS. For weeks he kept getting sicker and I followed my vet's advice even though in my gut I knew it wasn't right. It doesn't help JD for me to dwell on that, and it doesn;t help Dexter for you to feel bad. You're doing your best for him. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This should help convince Mike to throw out that Iam's food. Have him look at the ingredient list; second to last, we have ethoxyquin: 

"Originally developed by Monsanto as a stabilizer for rubber, Ethoxyquin has also been used as a pesticide for fruit and a color preservative for spices, and later for animal feed. The original FDA permit for use as stabilizer in animal feed limited use to two years and did not include pet food, but it falls under the same legal category. It has never been proven to be safe for the lifespan of a companion animal.It has been linked to thyroid, kidney, reproductive and immune related illnesses as well as cancer, but so far no conclusive, reliable research results either for the safety of this product or against it have not been obtained. Monsanto conducted research years ago, but results were so inconclusive due to unprofessional conduct and documentation that the FDA demanded another study. There are currently several studies underway to determine whether Ethoxyquin is safe or not, and until those studies are completed, pet food suppliers may continue to use Ethoxyquin. This is how things stand after about 6 years, and no new details have emerged so far." 
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/?page=badingredients

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

So while we're looking at the Dog Food Project's list of Ingredients to Avoid, let's look at what else appears on the list that's also in the Iam's Rx food that your vet is selling you to feed a sick dog: 

Brewers Rice.

AAFCO: The small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.

A processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice. Contrary to what many pet food companies want to make you believe, this is not a high quality ingredient, just much cheaper than whole grain rice.

Chicken By-product Meal: 

AAFCO: Consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.

Fish Meal:

Like with all other animal sources, if a type isn't specified, you never know what type or quality of fish is used.
According to US Coast Guard regulations, all fish meal not destined for human consumption must be conserved with Ethoxyquin (unless the manufacturer has a special permit). This preservative is banned from use in foods for human consumption except for the use of very small quantities as a color preservative for spices. So unless the manufacturer either presents a permit or states "human grade" fish or fish meal is used, you can be pretty sure Ethoxyquin is present in the food even if it is not listed.

And of course, the first and therefore the most plentiful ingredient in the food is corn grits. Very nutritious. 

There's nothing medicinal or therapeutic in this food at all. Nothing. It's simply a "bland diet". 

https://www.iams.com/dog-food/veterinary-formula-dog-food-intestina...

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

I just want to say thank you for sharing all of this information. I  have been dealing with similar problems with Gatsby who is 7 months old and  don't know what to do.  I posted a discussion on The Food Group and had wonderful response from Karen & Jackdoodle.  She has me already working on some changes. 

[Lauria Orr]

You have sure been through a lot, and in turn have learned tons! I am so glad things are going more smoothly! DK is so helpful when you have a pup who needs help. Karen has researched so much, and is very helpul. One of my husband's K-9s had pancreatic insufficiency, and digestive enzymes have been fantastic...they basically turned that bus around! Our Vet ordered pro-biotic when my dogs were on Metronidazole, just spacing it out by at least 4 hours from each other. They did great. We actually did that for my Mom, when she would get recurring UTIs and had to use antibiotics. Her MD instructed us to give the Probiotic in-between 2 doses of the antibiotics. This made a huge difference for her as well. Best of luck with your pup!