How the same "breed" looks SO differently!

[Jennifer Tramell]

I know that this has been discussed before, but there are so many new members I thought it might be a good topic to revisit.

So, how can the same parent dogs have a litter of such great variety?  Why does puppy A look completely different than his brother?  What coat type will come from which generation?  Genetics....it's all genetics.

I've had goldendoodles for 7 years and little by little I have learned a smidge about goldendoodle genetics.  When I first started on DK, it was explained with the marble example, but I'm afraid I never quite understood that :-)  Here is summary of what I've learned:

There are 2 sets of identified genes which directly affect the appearance of a doodle: curl (C) and furnishings (F).  (A shedding gene has recently been identified and it appears to be linked with furnishings, but there is only one lab (that I know of) doing testing on this gene.)  A f1 (first generation) labra/goldendoodle comes from a parent poodle and a parent retriever.  The retriever parent has 2 copies of No Curl (NC) and 2 copies of No Furnishings (NF).  Until recently it was believed that ALL poodles have 2 copies of Curl (C) and 2 copies of Furninshings (F); however, testing on poodles have found that some poodles only have 1 copy of Furnishings and 1 copy of No Furnishings.  (This is pretty recent stuff, I think it started with a 2009 study of Portuguese Water Dogs.)

All offspring get one copy of each gene from each parent.  Given the genetics involved, a f1 doodle will most likely have C/NC and F/NF.  The C and F are dominant so they will display some curl and furnishings but will carry the NC and NF gene.  If the poodle parent is F/NF, you might have an f1 who gets the NF from both parents and matures with an open face - no furnishings.

After this it can get confusing.  An f1b (75% poodle, 25% retriever) comes from an f1 (F/nf, C/nc) bred to a poodle.  If the poodle is F/F, C/C, the offspring will all have furnishings and curl.  If the poodle is F/nf, you will have some open faces.  At this point it goes from confusing to mind boggling.....

An f2b is a f1b (75% poodle) bred to an f1 (50/50).  An f3 is a f1b bred to an f1b.  A multigen is any generation past that.  In order to have a "doodle" look (the eyebrows, moustache and beard) for an entire litter, one parent must carry BOTH copies of the F gene.  The most consistent coats will come if one parent has been genetically tested and carries both copies of F and C.  Without genetic testing, you don't know which pups will get one or both recessive genes and end up with flat coats, open faces but curly coats, or open faces and straight coats.  Parent dogs who both carry for the recessive gene could have 25% of the litter what I call "non-typical".  

Now, I've mainly studied goldendoodles and only in my spare time - I have no initials after my name :-)  I hope I presented accurate information, but again, I may have misunderstood something in my research.  Regardless of the science, the APPEARANCE of a doodle does not affect the wonderful attributes of this lovely hybrid - provided they have been bred responsibly.  I have met many, many goldendoodles over the past 7 years and have never been disappointed by their personality and temperament; however, I've been amazed at the huge variety of their coats.  Hopefully this may shed some light regarding WHY they look so differently and what to look for if you want to guarantee a certain doodle style.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thank you for posting this, Jennifer. It's indeed fascinating and helpful. 

Here's a good, interesting article with graphics about mixed breed dogs: http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/pages/Multimedia-Infographics

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

As a visual learner, I thank you for this interesting article with graphics! I really tried to concentrate on Jennifer's information, but my tired brain quit! Lol.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks, very interesting.

[Linda, Charlie Brown and Beau]

Interesting - yes, thank you for posting.  

[Barbie]

Thanks for sharing that information, Jennifer. Karen's link is a nice compliment to your post also.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Jennifer, that was a great way to explain a difficult concept. Karen, thanks for posting this article.  Reading both gives one a better understanding of both looks and behavior.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

What still puzzles me is the issue of furnishings. I was told by one of the most knowledgeable Poodle people I know that she has never seen an open faced Poodle. And in fact, VetGen doesn't list Poodles as one of the breeds that should be tested for the mutation in the RSPO2 gene which is responsible for furnishings. Vet Gen does refer to the 2009 study. So does Optigen.

https://www.vetgen.com/canine-furnished-coat.html

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_impropercoat.html

Jennifer, do you have any links for the information on some Poodles having only one copy of the gene for furnishings? I have not been able to find any evidence of that, but unless an awful lot of breeders are lying about parentage, it must be true. 

[Jennifer Tramell]

Honestly, I don't remember.  I'm on a lot of goldendoodle social media and I often see something which spurs me on to learn more - this was one of those incidents.    I have recently communicated with a very reputable goldendoodle breeder (member of GANA) and she said that they discovered that their poodle stud carried for the IC (incomplete coat) when a litter of f1s had pups with no furnishings.  She wasn't aware that was possible and thus hadn't tested her stud.  Her stud is now tested and carries both copies of curl, but only one copy of furnishings.  

I met a goldendoodle pup (6 months old) at the park and assumed he was an f2 based on his complete lack of furnishings.  His owner assured me that they had met the parents and they were first generation golden and poodle; this further intrigued me.

I suppose there's always the possibility of a poodle having a different breed in the background and a recessive IC coming through.  (I've seen some poodle breeders who think the merle coloration is a result of on outside breed.)  Since being an IC carrier seems rare, and only recently have people been testing for the IC gene, I can understand why poodles are assumed to carry both copies.  It probably wouldn't really matter to some as a proper poodle cut has the furnishing shaved. 

Sorry I don't have actual documentation, things just trigger my interest and off I go.....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I've also tried researching this, but all I usually get is doodle sites. I hate to say it, but the information about purebred genetics on most of the doodle breeders' sites is pretty flawed. We also know that the very best Poodle breeders are not selling breeding dogs to doodle breeders, so it is possible I guess that some of those Poodles have other breeds in the background, but I still have never found a record of a single Poodle with an open face, nor one that sheds, and shedding seems to go along with IC. With my last Poodle, I traced her pedigree back into the early 1900s, and there was nothing but purebred registered Poodles. 

I never shaved my Poodles' faces, and there are actually recognized Poodle cuts for dogs who are not being shown that don't have shaved faces. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Optigen also mentions that IC dogs (those without furnishings) are prone to shedding. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

This is so interesting....thanks!