Help with Recall

[S & Charlie]

Hi Everyone! This is Charlie, he's an  8.5 month old mini F1b Goldendoodle.

He has been the BEST puppy; he was completely house trained in a couple weeks, slept through the night from night 1, we threw away his crate at 4 months because he out grew it AND he was trusted to roam the house at that point (with no accidents or any destruction! 4.5 months strong!) He's had a TON of socialization from day 1. I made sure to take him everywhere with me, including places that were super crowded, loud noises, etc. He loves people and dogs. He did puppy class and we just finished obedience class a month ago. He's super smart (like all of them are!) and usually gets things immediately (for example- one day in obedience class, we taught them to sit by the door when we put our hand on the handle, and not going until we give the okay. He learned it completely by doing it a couple times in class, and still does it every time we take him outside or open the door, 2 months later.) He even walks great on a leash. One problem with training him- he's not food motivated at all. Even the most high value treat means nothing to him when he is outside. Outside is his world, and he couldn't care less about food. I have taught him to "come" inside the house about 90%. Sometimes he is REALLY stubborn and will not listen, but inside the house is the easiest. We have a big fenced in back yard, and his recall is about 60% in the back yard. he listens well, not perfectly. Outside of the house and backyard he will not come when called! I have a 20 food lead and practice with him ALL THE TIME outside. He will come maybe twice, then he gets tired of that "game." I've tried using the clicker, I've tried using a tennis ball or toy as the reward, even praise. I feel like I've tried everything. I do not want to resort to using a vibration collar like my trainer suggested. There have been a couple instances where he will get out of the house when someone opens the door and doesn't realize he's right behind them, and so on. We live on a quiet cul de sac, and he BOLTS outside, and runs to the back yards of the houses across from us. He goes behind one and will come out another one 4 houses down. We have one neighbor with an acre fenced in across from us, and Charlie LOVES his backyard so we keep it open for when he gets out because he'll always end up there. I can close the gate behind him and leash him (our neighbor is in and out of an assisted living home, him and his son are happy that they can help by giving us another backyard to use). What else can I do to improve his recall? I know he's only a puppy and this is the age that they test their limits. but that's still not an excuse. I feel like it's just his personality. We've never had a dog growing up (3 goldens) that wouldn't listen outside or come when called outside. He was trusted off leash until he was about 5 months old. I could take him with me to get the mail or take the trash cans in, and he stayed by me. One day he just changed, and decided he would bolt the second he got outside. I have tried many other things that my trainer has suggested but nothing has really worked. I will practice with him in a couple 15 minute increments at least 4/5 days a week. He does not seem to improve, he literally has a mind of his own. Does anyone have a doodle who acted like this and grew out of it? PLEASE tell me what you did! So sorry for the long post!!

[Joani, Skadi & Elli]

Very cute puppy!  I am one that is not opposed to the e-collar.  I just had my trainer come and help me re-condition our rescue for recall.  Super results, super fast.  These dogs are incredibly smart!  They need to pay attention to you and what you want, not the other way around, which is what was happening with Elli.  I had to pay $110 for her 2 hours of training and it was worth every single penny!  She can now go in the woods with me and Skadi (who I've NEVER had a problem with) and we can all walk off leash, knowing Elli will not take off on me the minute I turn my back.  E-collar's are useful when you think of the consequences of your dog getting lose and possible heading for danger.  Hope I've helped.  

[S & Charlie]

I'm not really against the collars, I just really don't want to have to rely on one. My trainer said she has 3 dogs, and her poodle mix is the smartest and if she's going to be doing off leash time with them (she goes hiking and camping with them) she always has to use the collar for a reminder. I just don't want to have to have it on ALL the time for the chance that he'll get out. Also, I'm trying to figure it out myself because I don't want to spend the additional $200ish dollars for personal training, AND the $150ish that the collar itself costs. Growing up we never paid a single dollar for training our golden retrievers and they were all amazing. I've already spent about $500 on training (eek) and would like to explore other options before spending another $400 on this. I'll do ANYTHING for my baby, but I also don't want to throw money away if I can find another way. Also, what if it doesn't work with him? I just can't decide what to dooooooooo :(

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

He is still very much a puppy, and it sounds like you've already done quite a bit of training, but at this age it's going to take a lot of reinforcement.  I have always used the long line for recall training, but if treats are not motivating him that presents a real challenge.  What does he like that you could use as a reward?  One of my guys is very ball oriented.  If I carry a ball and squeak it he will come running....and his reward is that I will throw it for him to fetch.  In the back yard what do you do when he doesn't come to you?  You have to be sure that you always (calmly) go after him....don't chase just calmly walk following him until he gets tired and gives up.  Don't correct or punish when you do get to him.  This just lets him know that you will always catch up to him and bring him back.  I would also keep working your indoor recall and always make sure there's some kind of reward.

Doggy Dan just came out with a special Recall Training DVD which I ordered last week.  I'll update this discussion when it comes and I have a chance to review it for new ideas.

I have one Doodle with a consistently reliable recall, and another one who "forgets" and needs continual reinforcement.

I'm sure you know and are doing your best, but until you're getting a good recall it's so important to prevent him from "escaping".  That's self-reinforcing for him and so dangerous. 

[S & Charlie]

Thanks for the suggestions! I know he's still very much so a puppy, but I also think it's part of his personality and he needs something more than what I've been doing. I met a friend at her apartment complex to meet her new doodle puppy last weekend, and I had Charlie on the leash while we were talking outside of her complex. He was just sniffing around but I SOMEHOW let go of his leash by mistake (he may have tugged a little bit when I wasn't expecting it) and the second he realized that he was loose, he lunged towards the building next to hers and ran around in the woods behind it. I was able to catch him fairly quickly thanks to his leash being attached still, but he would not listen to me at all. I try not to freak out and sound scared, but nothing works. It's weird instances like this when he gets out, it's never on purpose. The last time he got out at home, he figured out how to open the storm door that has a HANDLE that must be pressed down and turned all the way! He used to play with dogs in the cul de sac off leash with no problem, so the time before that when he got out, it was because I let him off to play with the other dogs. He would always play with them and stay close, but he's no longer interested in other dogs when he gets off, he just wants to run around in the woods sniffing everything that he can! I obviously won't let him off leash anymore (that was when this first started happening). When I take him out to the cul de sac on a long line, I try to reward him with his tennis ball which he LOVES, but he won't even look at it when I throw it. the best reward for him is just being able to go outside. no toys or food matter to him out there, even praise and affection. Also, I never do any negative reinforcement and make sure it's always a good experience when he does come to me. I don't get mad at him or ever raise my voice, even if it takes 30 minutes for him to stubbornly come to me, I will always praise him when he does. Definitely let me know how the dvd is!!I may have to check that out as well.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I received and just finished watching the Doggy Dan video on Recall training.  He does use a whistle for the beginning of the training (and the whistle comes with the video).  The reason he gives for this is that so many dogs have become immune to their owners calling them using inconsistent commands and often with no follow through that many dogs need a "fresh start".  The process starts with putting your dog on a short leash, filling your treat bag with new high value treats (definitely something like cooked chicken versus any type of biscuit), and blowing the whistle (he does three quick ones).  When the dog looks at you treat immediately.  You're getting them used to knowing that the whistle means that they are going to get something really good.  When the dog makes this association you can move to a long line and repeat the process.  Take them out somewhere with plenty of space but avoid distractions (other dogs or people) until the dog gets used to responding to the whistle.  Do it over and over, treating every time.  When the dog is coming to you 100% of the time after blowing the whistle, you can introduce distractions (but keep him on the long line).  Again when 100% reliable you can move to training off leash...but always in a safe place.  The end of the video shows how to move to verbal commands and how to lessen the use of treats.  This is pretty much the same process that I learned from my trainer...except for the whistle.  It does help to see the whole process on the video.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I totally get what you are saying.  He is young and a good recall is really hard to train. You have to stay with it.

I have had two of almost a dozen dogs all of them were well trained and were good dogs, but for those two the lure of freedom was just too much.  The first was Storm, a Siberian Husky, who would be chastised firmly by our older golden when I would finally catch her after one of her adventures.  The other is my current Tigger.  Roo comes, Tigger is nearly nine.... doesn't come outside the house on the loose - at all.  Tigger has had at least twice as much training as Roo on the recall and loves food like life, but not enough to come when he is "exploring". He rarely gets away from me, but it does happen occasionally and scares me to death that I will not be able to find him.  There is a new gadget called the Pet Whistle which my son got Tigger for Christmas and works from an app on you I-phone or I-pad.  This one actually works.  The "home" circle is too large for my liking, but gives you an idea of where he is anyway.  It is not a solution, but a help in tracking him down.

I am not opposed to e-collars, I trained Roo with one with the help of an experienced trainer.  It is tricky as you are supposed to catch them with a quick "nick" as their attention wanders from you, not when they have already left you and  are on the "run".  After they know what it means, you use it if you think they cannot hear you and it should make them listen for you and move toward you.

In the meantime, I am working with Tigger again with the clicker, which he really understands.  I got a new(to me) training book that I am hoping will help.

Good luck to you, keep trying and practicing on a leash only and only use an e- collar if you find a good e-trainer.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

The Doggy Dan DVD also comes with a Pet Whistle....I can't wait to get this and see what it's all about.  I've never trained with a whistle before.

[Laura and Angus]

It's clear that working on recall is crucial here - I agree with what others have said that you have to find something your pup is excited about - maybe a really special toy that you only use for recall training (that keeps it exciting). But I would also focus on the darting out of the house behavior. It seems like since your pup was so well-behaved, maybe he's gotten a lot of freedom at home and now he thinks he gets to decide when he leaves the house. I would say doing some leadership training activities with him in relation to leaving and entering the house especially would be really helpful.

Do you make him sit before going outside? Do you make him wait for you to say "okay" before letting him leave or enter doorways? If not, you should definitely start this activity. You should always be first in and out of the house. I'd also have him sit and wait before he can have his food. Our doodle is very pushy and he is constantly trying to be in charge, so he requires a lot of leadership training. Charlie may not be pushy like our Angus, but it sounds like he's not really recognizing the rules of the house. Something else we work on is called "blocking" - you walk in front of your pup down hallways and stairwells and such. If they try to rush past, you physically block by putting your leg out. They quickly learn that you're the leader and they have to walk behind you. All these things help to reinforce manners/leadership at home.

[S & Charlie]

He actually does sit the moment I put my hand on the handle of a door, and I can open the door wide open and just look at him for a minute, and he won't go outside until I say "okay". He doesn't care about ANYTHING while he's outside, outside time is EVERYTHING to him. He's not a big eater in general... he doesn't beg for food at all. I give him 2 meals a day, but he'll just graze. I know how much he eats and when, because I am always monitoring it. I don't mind him grazing because I know that he is still getting all the nutrition he needs. He would rather starve then eat when I put food down. I have no interest in "training" him to eat two meals a day by starving him instead of just grazing all day, that's just the way he is. He's been weird about food from day 1.