Dog training philosophies

[Stacy]

I’ve had this dialogue running through my head for a while, and I would love to be able to have a discussion. Purely theoretical. I think I’ve brought it up before, but I feel that, while there are a lot of opinions, we often don’t get into the *why* we hold the opinions that we do. And that’s what I would like to delve into.

I follow three trainers on the internet. Two are APDT dog trainers. Purely positive. One of them is the trainer that I hired for Maggie. He also has a background in neuropsychology. I think he is the right type of trainer for Maggie. The other trainer I follow calls himself a balanced trainer. He uses an e-collar to train dogs. Maggie ate his book. That will tell you what she thinks of that! But he has amazing success with dogs who have failed a lot of other trainers. Not all of the dogs, but a significant number come in to him with bites, human and dog, on their record and problems that, if not addressed, spell the end of these dogs lives. And I’ve seen his videos of these dogs turning things around. Dogs who come in clearly aggressive, wearing muzzles and trying to eat everyone who, in a matter of days are attentive, healing, and able to moderate their behavior. 


The balanced trainer gets a lot of hate from the positive reinforcement trainers. And I’m still not sure why. I see the dogs with their e-collars at the park. And they look like happy well adjusted dogs. They don’t look like they’re afraid of their owners. That bond doesn’t seem to be hurt by the training methods. And they use a lot of positive reinforcement too, but the balanced trainer’s opinion is that there are limitations to training when the dogs don’t have consequences for their choices. And that we are harming them by not having clear expectations and boundaries. I see a lot of parallels between the way we parent children and dogs, but that’s probably a different discussion.

My dad has a good friend who is an e-collar trainer. He actually trained my brothers nutty German shorthair. Their theory for Maggie’s crate aversion is to put her in the crate with the e-collar, get her to settle and then correct her for the behavior where she tries to get out. (Don’t worry, I don’t listen to much of what my dad says - I don’t like his politics either.) I can see that backfiring with a dog who then thinks that the crate is a shock box. At the same time I sort of see it as a thing that could work, but something I’m not willing to try with Maggie. The positive trainer’s theory of putting treats in the crate and hoping that she gets used to it doesn’t work either. And maybe Maggie is just a dog who can’t be crated. Since we seem to have figured out a work around for it I’m okay with that. But I still feel like having a dog who is comfortable in a crate is a really good thing.

Anyway, I sort of drifted. I guess what it comes down to is that I see a lot of people who don’t like the e-collars. They will tell you how much they don’t like the e-collars. But I don’t see a lot of good solid arguments for *why* they don’t like them. And I would really like to just have a conversation about what people think about the subject.

Thanks! Stacy

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I have say that everything depends on the dog.  Early education beginning just after birth ( therefore by the breeder) is just as important with dogs as babies.  Continuing positive education by owner from 8 weeks on is optimum.  But there are dogs that did not get that advantage or had it ruined.  There are dogs like people that are "learning challenged", stubborn, not treat and/or praise responsive and on and on. 

I put my trust in really good trainers to help owners like myself. I am raising my 12th puppy, but I still can use the extra  outside eyes and wealth of knowledge and ideas that I don't have.

I used an e-collar on Roo for about a year with a trainers help.  I signed "in blood" that I would keep it on low, he would wear it all day, every day (it charged at night).  I was to use it only as an "attention getter" very low setting. Roo was one of my heart dogs ( Dh would say all were my heart dogs) but as an adolescent he was so full of energy and life, I simply could not manage him.  The collar worked wonders to train him with treats and praise once I got his attention.  I do not think it damaged him or our relationship, but I would never have been able to use it without my weekly training session.

[Adina P]

I don't have a problem with an ecollar.  I have a problem with thinking it is a 'higher level correction' or something where you keep amping up until finally "ugh, we have no choice but to use an ecollar.'  I think ecollars work best when you think of them as REMOTE hands-off training devices.  I'm not totally comfortable with using one but that's a skill/experience issue.  I've used one before to train a "never do this" behavior but we didn't do 100% at making it impossible for our dog to never do it again so while it "worked" it still took all that other "positive" prevention stuff in the end.  

[Adina P]

Suffice to say that training is HARD WORK and it is HARD WORK regardless of what training philosophy you follow.

[BG and Gavin]

Well great discussion with lots of good input. So I agree that different dogs need different things and learn differently.  I used an e-collar wireless fence to boundary train Gavin at the cottage. I would not however do this with just any dog. Gavin is well balanced and not overly soft or overly hard. I had no fear that it would cause him any trauma. It was useful in helping him learn the expectations and boundaries as when he heard the sound he knew he was at his limit. We decided to use it because his years of enjoyment being with us off leash on our property, enjoying all of our activities would be worth the two or so times he actually got shocked. We trained very carefully though. A neighbour who is elderly and has a dog that is um, a basket case, messed up the training and her dog would not leave the house. It was the wrong type of dog for the training in my opinion. So I guess my training philosophy is to think mostly about what it is you are trying to communicate to the dog. I think once you get him to understand your expectations you just do it over and over again until it’s a habit. Whatever makes your dog tick is the reward be that treats, play, praise etc. And I think you have to correct them so that they know what those expectations are. A correction however could be just replacing them for example when they break a stay.  I think the most important thing is bonding and relationship.  I always say, back in the day the farm dog did not respond to his master because he was getting treats or a ton of praise. He was instead a partner with the farmer and worked along side of him and when he wasn’t working he waited nearby for his next instruction. Lol I’m not sure the farmer philosophy is an actual training philosophy but that’s the one I like because I think there is mutual respect there.

[Kathy and Ruby Skye]

Although I would never use an ecollar on my little doodle, I did use one in the past. It was for our golden retriever who made a habit of running away to visit the neighbors if she got out or we we didn’t keep a constant eye on her while having her with us in the yard. Our house sits back away from the street so is protected from traffic, but after going down the driveway, she could go right and there was a very busy intersection. She usually went left to do her visiting. We couldn’t scold her when we found her as it wasn’t her fault, but ours. We borrowed a friend’s ecollar and used it twice with a command while she was sneaking away. That’s all it took and she understood it was not acceptable. Before that, we had given the same command and she took off running. She never ran away again. So, while I’m not a fan of shocking my dog, I think there are situations where they can be useful if other methods haven’t worked and safety is an issue.

As to the ‘why’ of my belief, I do think ecollars are for special circumstances only. I think some people use them first to get rapid results which I consider lazy. I used one on my golden as offering treats or other methods didn’t work and I feared for her safety. Since there are so many other training options available and specialized trainers, personally I would exhaust those before considering an ecollar which I view as extreme, but perhaps needed in rare cases. 

[Stacy]

I just want to say that I really appreciate everyone's opinions on this subject. I know it can be a hot issue among dog owners and I think it's wonderful that we can have a discussion and share different opinions without it turning ugly. I agree that different dogs need different types of training. And I hope that there is something for everyone out there. It's really important to me to have dogs who are able to interact with the world. Training is always a lot of work. But it's worth it for the person and the dog.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Except for special issues, like you are dealing with Stacy, the person to blame for misbehaving dogs is pretty much oneself because whatever method one uses, it really boils down to consistency and amount of time putting the training into practice.  Two of my boys were well trained - to the point of great off-leash behavior, even with distractions (lizard, squirrel, and bird distractions continued to need polish :-} ), but I failed to keep them practiced. The result are dogs who mostly do what they want. The fault is entirely mine.  

You have inspired me to work with all three to brush up on general obedience as well as addressing Charlie's specific needs with a trainer.

[Carol and Truffle]

And thank you for this, Nancy. Getting our pup on 5/13. Have had dogs in the past & "I" have never been consistent with training.

My husband & I are talking regularly about the need for consistency - with the pup & between each other.

We really want a well behaved socialized dog this go round & we realize that getting that result is entirely on us.

Stacy - glad you began this discussion.