Henry's allergy testing results in; grass and a question about Cytopoint

[Dolly Dykhouse]

Hello everyone,

Henry began chewing/digging at his paw pads a few months ago. I thought that it might be caused by the new cedar bark that they had placed at the dog park we go to several days a week. Over the last 10-12 weeks it has escalated to not only rooting around his paw pads like a pig looking for truffles but also licking the tops of them to the point that they are now that lovely shade of rust red in-between the toes as well as scratching his muzzle and armpits multiple times a day. I had allergy testing done last week and the vet called me last night with the results; Bermuda grass, crab grass, rye grass and Russian thistle had a high reaction. I was pretty surprised...our backyard is aggregate and concrete, no grass at all and he rarely steps foot on ANY grass as our outings are to our local lake and the dog park which also has NO grass just bark or sand. Now with that said, our house backs up to our local 5 acre park which is loaded with all of the above grasses I imagine and even though I don't take Henry there (no dogs in public parks in my city) we do use a whole house fan to cool our house off at night and I had a lightbulb moment of "gee, this is right around the time we started using the whole house fan that his itching started." My window screens show all the pollen, dust, etc that is being pulled into the house and Lord knows I have to clean off the plantation shutters every few days because they are coated with dust and pollen. Does this make sense? Does grass have pollens that are released like flowers and trees? If this is the case, even though his dog park is all cedar bark the entire 15 acres surrounding it are grasses and trees and I'm sure that if they are pollen producing it is getting into the dog area and coating the bark too. Gah! 

The vet offered a few solutions; allergy shots, Apoquel and Cytopoint. I'm not thrilled about Apoquel as it is an immune suppressing drug and Henry is only 18 months old; a lifetime which could be shortened with this drug. Does anyone have any experience with Cytopoint? Ive done some reading and another doodle owner in Australia swears by it and uses it in combination with Apoquel for her doodles severe allergies. I'm going with the allergy injections to start because as I have read on this board, and Karen's experiences with Jack, that this is the safest of the options. If anyone (Karen!!!!) has any other words of wisdom and advice I am all ears! 

Thanks from Henry and Dolly

[Nicole and Teddy]

Teddy has been suffering majorly from allergies this year - first year ever. Several hotspots on legs/paws, etc. Haven't had testing done but I assume it's something similar to what your doodle's got. We tried thistle and quercetin from our more holistic vet- this is a more 'natural' route that is supposed to have similar effects as an anti-histamine, but didn't seem to help. After a 2nd trip to a different (my local) vet, she prescribed apoquel for a 2 week course. While I was hesitant I proceeded as I really wanted to get the itching under control. That seemed to do the trick and after that was completed, she prescribed an anti-histamine- I give him a tablet twice a day and it seems to be working. While he loves swimming, this seemed to aggravate it (wet fur in the south = no good) so I've stopped that for the time being as well. I also wipe his paws when he comes in from outside and try to brush him more frequently so he doesn't get mats that will aggravate the itching. I've also recently begun an omega 3 supplement as I've heard this is supposed to help as well. Good luck!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

My Murphy has seasonal allergies and in the past we have used Apoquel because you can start and stop it without weaning which helps because he only flares for a few weeks in the Spring and Fall.  We have now decided to move him to Cytopoint when he starts to show symptoms in the Fall because he has IBD and has just had a tumor removed.  My Vet feels that Cytopoint is a better option with his recent history.  Neither of us is comfortable now with an immunosuppressant.  If you have already done the allergy testing and this is more than a short-term seasonal problem I would definitely go with the injections. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't know how I missed this discussion, and I apologize for not responding sooner.

By all means, go with the immunotherapy. It is the safest choice of allergy treatment there is, and really involves no drugs. The antigens that are used in the allergy shots are synthetic forms of the allergens themselves, which makes this actually a very homeopathic type of treatment. It was very effective for JD. 
Yes, grasses have pollens that are released into the air, just like trees, flowers, and weeds. And the allergy symptoms are casused not by contact with the grass itself, but by inhaling the pollens in the air. It is the protein molecules of the allergens, whether they are pollens, mites, molds, foods, whatever, that cause the allergy symptoms, and those protein molecules have to enter the blood stream, which typically happens either through ingestion (eating) or through inhalation (breathing), in order to trigger the immune response which causes the symptoms.  
Most plant pollens travel hundreds of miles on the air, which is why you don't have to have a particular plant growing in your immediate area to have allergy symptoms from that plant, and why trying to avoid exposure to a particular type of pollen is pretty close to impossible. 

[Dolly Dykhouse]

Hi Karen,

Thanks for your response! Henry's serum is in and we have an appt with his vet tomorrow afternoon to learn how to do his injections and hopefully get some information from her. I want to be open minded, that said LOL, I am pretty firm in my opinion from research here and other places online that both Cytopoint injections and Apoquel are not therapies that I want to use to "fix" Henry's scratching/paw licking. The research and feedback from other dog owners show me that unless we have run out of any other options and Henry's life depends on it I don't want to put him, at 18 months of age, on a drug therapy that has the ability to shorten his life by introducing other health issues. 

I am trying the approach of where does this all start and how can I fix that? It seems that all allergens are a response by the immune systems going into hyperdrive mode and producing histamine in sometimes large levels causing the flares of itchy scratchy paw licking which is the dogs response to the allergen. So my thought, and please tell me if I'm off base here because I respect your knowledge and experience with Jackdoodle so much; if I help improve Henry's immune system, help to make it stronger and healthier it will give his body the ability along with the immunotherapy to fight his bodies tendency to go into overdrive with histamine. Now you may remember that I found this wonderful place of ours here at Doodlekisses when I was searching for 9 week old Henry's giardia issues. Henry came to me with giardia/coccidia from his breeder and we spent over 2 months trying to get on top of it before we finally got a floating fecal test that did not have cysts in it but still showed giardia in his system which I was told is normal for several months after having the parasites. At 7 months Henry came down with a case of e-coli from playing at the local lake which put us on antibiotics, at 14 months Henry had a severe UTI infection which required two different runs of very strong antibiotics the first of which he was extremely reactive to to the point of vomiting blood it tore his stomach apart so badly. It was during this UTI infection that the itching/paw licking/anal gland issues started. I am far from an expert or a vet but looking back over all the history and everything that I have found online, Henry has had a lot of bad things go on in his GI system from the time he was 9 weeks and I "think" that this has played a role in his allergy/immune system issues. He has been on antibiotics four times since he was 9 weeks old, that is not a good thing.  Sorry for the long diatribe, but my gut feeling is I need to work on Henry's immune system which has been compromised so much. It might not get rid of his allergy issues but my thought is if I can strengthen and help repair it maybe in combination with immunotherapy we will see greater success with this more homeopathic process than using steroids, or other medications that can produce serious health risks later on. Do I make sense, or am I going down the wrong path?

I have had Henry on Proviable DC multiple times the past 16 months and I have him on them again for the long haul. I also have him on fish oil supplements and EPO and we just started generic Zyrtec (we tried both Allegra and Claritin and they didn't seem to have any effect). I have been giving him one Zyrtec but I'm thinking he should have 2 daily as he is 70#, does this seem right? Is there anything else that you used to help JD improve his immune system? I also started bathing him with Douxo once a week and I wipe him down after we have been outside. I'm concerned about secondary infections with his paw licking (which seems to have lessened a bit) is there a particular topical spray that you used to prevent this?

I know that this is long and I really appreciate your time helping me and I know that there is going to be someone like me that pops up now or in the future with the same questions. I have read dozens and dozens of posts in this group and it is such good information and reading others experiences lets me know I am far from being alone in dealing with these issues. Atopy is no joke for dogs or their owners and it is heartbreaking to watch my silly muppets personality effected by his daily misery in scratching and licking, I can only imagine what it feels like for him. 

Thanks so much Karen!

Dolly

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, so the first thing that we need to keep in mind is that all immune-mediated diseases, including Atopic dermatitis, which is the proper name for the kind of allergies that Henry, JD and many others here have, are the result of an over-active immune system. Far from needing to be "strengthened", their immune systems need to be calmed down, lol. That's why the treatment for most immune mediated involves immunosuppressant drugs. Turn down the immune system, and you turn down the response. But you also take away some of the body's protections against the things it is supposed to protect against, like infections and cancer.
All of this stuff you see about "boosting" the immune system, and 80% of the immune system being in the gut, on commercials and "alternative" websites, is very misleading. There are different kinds of immune responses, and in the case of Atopy, the last thing you want to do is boost the immune system. In immune-mediated and auto-immune diseases, the immune system is hyper-vigilant, and is misidentifying normal things in the bloos stream and in the body as foreign 'invaders"; a good example of this is rheumatoid arthritis, where the immune system is attacking the body's own connective tissue. (It's interesting to note that the very same drugs that are used to treat humans with R.A. are also used to treat other auto-immune diseases like plaque psoriasis. That's because these drugs are all suppressing the immune system; and these drugs are the same basic kinds of immuno-suppressants as the ones used in dogs. Apoquel and Xel-Jans are both Janus Kinase inhibitors. Atopica is the veterinary form of cyclosporine, which is used to prevent organ rejection in human organ recipients. It does that by tuning down the immune system so that it will not attack the new "foreign" organ. )
Atopic Dermatitis, which is the proper name for the kind of allergies that Henry has, is a genetic disease. Labrador Retrievers are in the top three breeds affected, and Goldens are also over-represented. This is one reason why nobody should ever be breeding these dogs before the age of 3. The disease often doesn;t show up until then, and there is no genetic test for it.
Take a look at this photo; I took this from an ALD breeder's website. This is one of her breeding females. Take a look at those feet; that's not dirt, lol.  Any bets as to how many of this dogs puppies ended up with Atopy? 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I have not seen any reliable information on probiotics being beneficial for treating Atopy. It is true that overuse of antibiotics can cause the immune system to be less efficient at fighting off certain kinds of infections, but that's completelt unrelated to the kinds of immune isses you are dealing with with Atopy and other auto-immune diseases. 

Certain kinds of fatty acids, EPA, DHA, and GLA, which are the ones found in fish oil and EPO (the GLA is in EPO, the others are in the fish oil) have anti-inflammatory properties and have also been shown to enhance the effects of antihistamines when they are used together. That's why we give these things for allergies. The immune responses in all immune-mediated diseases are inflammatory responses. 
Regarding the proper Zyrtec dosage, that's something I would ask your derm vet about; sometimes you do have to play around with dosages, and different specialists have different ways of treating. For example, JD's dermatologist recommended giving 3 Claritin once a day; Jane's Murphy gets his Claritin as one pill, twice a day. It's possible that the Claritin did not help Henry because the dosage was off. But different antihistamines work differently for different dogs, and sometimes you have to experiment a little to find the right dosage. 
Jack's dermatologist recommended a topical spray called "Relief", which I don't think is still on the market. But it's a combination of Praxomine and Colloidal Oatmeal, and I know you can find similar sprays online. If Henry does develop an infection from his paw licking, there are other topicals your derm vet can prescribe to treat that. 
Yes, Atopy is no joke, and it makes my blood boil every time I see someone who doesn;t understand what real allergies really are use the phrase "just allergies" as if that's something minor. I had a foster GSD back in the 90s, before we had all the treatment options we have now, who ended up having to be PTS because of severe Atopy. And that was a $30,000 former Police K9. :(
I will be here to help in any way I can, any time you have a question. That's psrt of JD's legacy. :) 

[Dolly Dykhouse]

Thanks so much for the information Karen and I am so glad that you set me straight regarding the immune system and what I "thought" was a good thing in bolstering it might wind up enhancing an already existing problem. 

I have (or did) open dialog with Henry's breeder (she is a Premium breeder on DK) and she INSISTS that this is the result of using Revolution as his flea/heartguard protectant. In all of her 13 years breeding doodles exclusively and 20 years of breeding in general NONE of her dogs have had allergy, itchy scratchy paw licking behavior and she does not use flea, tick or heart guard medications, only homeopathic organic ones. I brought the information to her so she would have it in determining whether to continue to breed Henry's sire and dam. I know that the dam has had one litter since Henry and the sire? Multiple litters. To say that I am frustrated with her theories and dumping it back in my lap saying the fault lies in my choice of flea/tick/heart guard medication is beyond belief!

I am sure I'll have more questions along the way, thank you so much for your help!

Dolly and Henry

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I have one word to say about every single thing Henry's breeder told you; it's one of our fabvorite words here on Dk and it's this: HOKUM. 

I am still waiting to hear one single doodle breeder ever admit that she has ever produced any dog with any kind of genetic disease. Wait, I take that back- I'm still waiting for one who is currently breeding to admit it. The good ones, who are decent and honest and actually acknowledged that a condition was genetic and refunded $ are mostly no longer breeding, because when you do it right, you don't make $$$, which of course is the only reason most doodle breeder are doing it. 
There is absolutely no connection between flea and tick preventatvies and Atopy. And Heartgard? That's what many breeders use to deworm litters: ivermectin. I'm really sorry to say this, but she is either a liar or she's just ignorant and irrsponsible, and in either case, I'd have nothing more to do with her, ever. 

[Stella]

"Hokum". Love it, haven't seen it used in a while!!!!!

[Dolly Dykhouse]

No kidding; HOKUM!

I brought the information to her because as an "educated" breeder her first and foremost thoughts should be on the health of her breeding canines and transparency to her potential clients. This breeder is not a small boutique breeder with one or two dogs but many, many dogs; it is her livelihood. While I applaud her dedication to using all the organic tools at her disposal for flea/tick prevention, preaching from a platform that all things that are not (like heart guard, Revolution, etc.) are the cause of Atopy and not her breeding animals is ridiculous! It's like choosing ignorance over being educated just to absolve yourself of any responsibility to your clients and the pets that they love and worry over like their human children. I know that breeding any animal is something that I personally could never do for this reason...it is 3:15 am and I am sitting here in my living room watching Henry go at his paws and praying that the Benadryl I have given him works soon. If I were a breeder knowing that one of my clients could be going through this with one of "my" dogs and I could do something to prevent this heartbreaking experience for future doodle owners and didn't? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. But that's just me.

I know that I would never recommend Henry's breeder to anyone based on her refusal to accept documentation that proves what he has and proven scientific research that shows Atopy as a GENETIC disease.

No wonder the only pet my mother approved of was a pet rock while I was growing up LOL.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here's a little secret: truly good breeders do not have many, many dogs or make their livelihood from breeding dogs. That's commercial breeding, and it is not in the best interests of any dog. 

There is no proven "organic tool" that reliably prevents fleas, ticks, or heartworm.  trust me, if there were, the same companies that make Heartgard, Frontline, Sentinel, etc. would be selling them and making a fortune. 

[Stacy]

I just want to chime in and agree with Karen. It took me a little while to break down and take Ava to the allergist. We tried all the other stuff first. Evening primrose and all the over the counter human allergy medications. Unfortunately, none of it worked for her. I am like you, and I really didn't want to go the route of apoquel. It took some time, but we went from a dog who kept me up all night chewing on her feet to a dog who didn't itch at all. It really was amazing. Our vet was even impressed with how well she responded to immunotherapy. She got every shot exactly as prescribed.

In the beginning I did break down and give her apoquel very sparingly. She was miserable and I was exhausted. I don't think apoquel is the solution to the allergy problem, but it really does work well. If I could give one pill every other, or even every third day I thought it was worth it to keep her comfortable. But we got to a point where we didn't need it at all. 

I also want to agree with the statement that all breeders don't give you the whole truth. I'm not trying to throw breeders under the bus. There are some amazing breeders out there, and my next dog (hopefully a long long time from now) will come from a breeder - I'm doing my research. But the goal is to sell puppies. And if they tell you that they've never had a dog with a medical issue they are just lying. I would rather know up front than to be lied to. Ava's breeder talks about how healthy her dogs are too. She was one of the dogs they used for breeding and she had a ton of health issues. If nothing else, her allergies were signifiant. I'm sure they never told any puppy buyers about that. I know they didn't tell me. I am still angry about the things I didn't know. And she also spouted the nonsense about how conventional medication (flea/tick/immunizations) would cause all of these health problems and that essential oils would keep them healthy. I don't know of any essential oil that prevents heart worm. I know there are people who honestly believe that, but I trust my vet and modern science. We may not always get it right, but I am doing the best for them that I know to do.