Taurine results are back, please take this seriously

[Melissa]

I know this was mentioned and basically discarded, so I'm posting this here.  We tested all of our dogs, and all three are low.  Our golden doodle is 118 (whole blood), which is critically low.  I have always fed the foods recommend on this site.  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't think we "discarded" the issue, I think we are watiing for more information and trying to make sense of what we know so far.

What led you to have all three of your dogs tested?

What is your vet's advice about food at this point? 

[Melissa]

I was already testing one dog, and shipping the blood overnight to UC Davis is expensive.  I talked to a woman via messenger that has a standard poodle that has TD DCM that is the same age as one of our dogs, who was also feeding the same food (we have a doodle and two poodles), so I figured it wouldn't hurt to test them all.  I contacted her when I heard her story to make sure the poodles weren't from the same litter.

The test results just came in tonight, so I assume the vet hasn't seen them yet.  I had to bring all the information to the vet to have the blood drawn, and he had no advice on food when I asked him at that point.  I will update when I know more in that regard.

[Shari Becker]

I know some folks are wary of the Mercola website, but here is a good article on the topic: https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2018/07/0.... I've read elsewhere it may indeed be breed specific. I still feed mostly commercial raw, and I am curious to find out if there's a difference in taurine levels in the food. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The thing is, in a healthy dog, it shouldn't matter what the taurine levels are in the food, because taurine is not an essential amino acid. Dogs make it themselves from other amino acids. So as long as they are getting enough animal protein in their diets (only animal proteins supply all of the essential aminos), there shouldn;t be a taurine deficiency, unless there is some other issue with digestion or absorption. The fact that so many of these dogs who are affected were on LID diets also points to that. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

And I have no use for Karen Becker, but i have to love her for this statement alone:

"Unfortunately, some processed pet food advocates are using the link between grain-free dog foods and DCM to try to push pet parents back in the direction of grain-based diets. Don't be fooled. The problem with grain-free formulas isn't the lack of grains! It's the high level of starchy carbohydrates coupled with the extreme high-heat processing methods used to produce these diets."

Exactly.

[Shari Becker]

I am quite careful with any information I get from the Mercola site, but I really liked this piece. So I am with you 100%. 

[Diana Erhart]

If you are not already a member, please join the Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers Facebook page and submit your dogs' results to Dr. Stern.  He is leading the research into the TD DCM and is trying to get as much information as possible so that he can figure out why this is happening.  He is collecting data on any breed of dog that has been tested, both deficient and in normal ranges.  There are some other questions they ask too so that they can try to find a causation for this.  Dr. Stern also will answer questions himself on the page and the information found there is more factual than anecdotal.  Karen, it is correct that it shouldn't be a problem in a healthy dog but it is affecting otherwise healthy dogs for some reason.  That is the research Dr. Stern is conducting, to try to find out the cause not just the correlation.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here is what I don't understand about your comments:

1. If these dogs are "otherwise healthy", why are they on limited ingredient, novel protein diets?

2. How can we know that the information in the FB group is "factual rather than anecdotal"? I know this is hard for normal people to believe, but I personally know of at least one person who has claimed that her dog has been tested and has taurine deficiency when that is a lie, the dog has not been tested, and I know of several people who have lied in several online dog forums about their dogs having diseases and conditions they do not have, or about feeding their dogs foods or diets that they do not in fact feed. 

I would also like to know if Dr. Stern has made any comment or answered the question, why has this condition been attributed to lamb and rice diets, and stated such in veterinary articles, since 2003, if in fact it is grain-free diets and/or legumes that are causing the problem? What about lamb and rice diets at this point, suddenly they are okay, or they are still suspect?  

My point being, I've been through this whole thing 15 years ago. Nothing was ever done, lamb and rice diets were not pulled off the market, and now apparently it turns out that they are fine? So why should we take this new idea any more seriously?

[Diana Erhart]

I will try to address your questions as best I can from reading his writings.  I would suggest that you contact Dr. Joshua Stern at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine directly with your questions.  Here is his contact info:  [phone]  [e-mail].  I know there is hype on both sides of the issue and I think a call to him would help you navigate through all the hype to get to the facts of what they know right now. 

1.  It appears that some dogs have been on these due to allergy type problems.  Some owners have just fed their dogs these foods because that is what their other dogs eat, or that is what a previous dog they had ate.  Or the owners are just going with the grain-free trend because they think it is the best thing for their dog.

2.  In the files section of the Facebook group is a chart with all the information they have gathered so far.  To get in the research you must provide them with a copy of your taurine tests, the breed of your dog, age of your dog, any results from a subsequent echocardiogram, what type of food the dog was eating, and other questions that I cannot remember right now.  From what I understand there are only two labs in the US that do the Taurine testing, UC Davis and one in Wisconsin.  All the other places (e.g. IDEXX) send the sample to one of these two places for testing.  At UC Davis, they are doing a scientific study to find a causation.

The condition has not been attributed to lamb and rice diets in dogs, per se.  I am not sure what articles you are reading, but I know there was a concern with cats back in the early 2000's and that is why taurine started being added to cat foods back then.  Dr. Stern is looking into the grain-free diets and legumes correlation with the TD DCM and is trying to figure out the causation.  I believe that recently he has also added potatoes to the list of suspect ingredients.  Is it the legumes/potatoes themselves?  Is it the way they interact with certain proteins that make the body not absorb the taurine?  Is it the way the food is processed?  Is it something else?  He just hasn't found the answer yet.  So for the time being, I believe his recommendation is to try to stay away from any food that has a legume or potato as one of the first five ingredients in the ingredient list.  But please feel free to contact him and get your questions answered directly.  From what I have heard he is very responsive.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Diana, it is widely known that research in the early 2000s resulted in statements being issued about lamb and rice diets causing TD DCM in dogs, and Dr. Stern himself has stated as much in numerous articles on this topic. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14507418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4971673/

(Note this statement in the above link: "It is known that large dogs who are fed lamb and rice diets are at increased risk to develop taurine-deficiency-induced dilated cardiomyopathy")

https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/holistic-healthcare-library/vitamins...
From the above article:
"But in the last few years, researchers have discovered that a few dogs evidently can’t supply their own taurine needs; at least not on a diet of cereal grains and by-products. Certain lines of spaniels, retrievers, and particularly Newfoundlands developed the same form of heart disease that was killing cats. Now, this disease is actually pretty common among dogs of all breeds, but what was interesting about these particular dogs was that supplementing taurine could reverse their heart disease. As it turned out, many of these dogs were eating lamb and rice dog foods. Lamb meat has a relatively low level of taurine compared to chicken, the most common pet food protein. (Beef, venison, and rabbit are also much lower in taurine than poultry.)"

And from the original article from the Morris Foundation, that started all the rest of this:“Diet plays a huge role in this condition,” said Dr. Josh Stern, a Morris Animal Foundation-funded researcher, owner of a Golden Retriever Lifetime Study participant (Lira, Hero #203), and veterinary cardiologist studying this disease. “Home-cooked diets have been implicated in this problem, as well as small batch, boutique dog foods.”

Other studies have linked high fiber, lamb and rice meal, and very-low-protein diets to the condition."

So once again I ask, what happened with the lamb and rice diets and the connection to this condition?
 

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Also, there is no such thing as "allergy type problems". Allergies are an incurable disease of the immune system. A dog who has been reliably diagnosed with allergies is not an "otherwise healthy" dog; he or she has an incurable immune mediated disease. It is important for everyone to know that, because misunderstandings about allergies are rampant, even among many vets.  
Of course, the vast majority of dogs whose owners think they have food allergies in fact do not have them. Only 1% of all dogs have an actual allergy to any type of food. 
But having lived with a dog who did have severe allergies, and having fostered one who actually died from them, it is very important to me that people stop thinking in terms of "just an allergy" or attributing every digestive system to food allergies. Dogs who really do have allergies need testing and treatment by veterinary dermatology specialists, not guesswork and food changes. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

And if I were to follow your advice and join this FB group, right there we have a problem, because obviously I do not have a dog who is taurine deficient or who has TD DCM, nor do I have a Golden Retriever or a related breed. So if I can join, anyone can join, and therefore you have a group full of people who ostensibly have nothing to contribute and no experience with the subject at hand.