Sticky situation, need advice & need to vent - VERY LONG, sorry

[Cheryl & Matey & Checkers]

Thanks in advance for reading this and for offering any advice or tips on how I should handle this situation. We have a 2 1/2 year old ALD that we adopted from a wonderful breeder and had a terrific experience. Matey has a great disposition and passed his CGC at 1 1/2. Our family decided to add to our pack and get a puppy. The price of a ALD was a bit high for us, and we also loved the personality of the Goldendoodle (which was also about $1000 less) and decided upon this breed. I did my research (but not nearly to same the degree as with the ALD) and thought that I found a reputable breeder. I filled out the application, we spoke on the phone (she is not local) and I had believed that this was all good so I put a deposit on a puppy that was a standard F1B with and estimated adult size of 60lbs (the perfect playmate for the ALD who’s best friend weighs in at 100lbs). From the beginning I told the breeder that I would not be able to get the puppy until it was almost 12 weeks old because I was taking a few weeks off (even though I work from home) to put all my attention to making sure that the introduction to our home went smoothly and comfortably for the puppy. I had asked for updated photos and the puppies weight on 2 occasions but the breeder did not give me either, only an excuse about the lack of photos. I was beginning to feel uneasy about the breeder but then a friend said that because our previous breeder was so great at communicating and providing information that it would be unfair to compare the breeders. The day before he was to be shipped the breeder called and said that one of his paws was shaved by the vet because he had a little scab and the vet wanted to make sure that it was nothing more. When he arrived he not only had the paw shaved but was growing out his fur from his two front leg being shaved as well. He was tiny too, much much smaller than I had expected for 12 weeks old. When I brought him to the vet 2 days later he was found to have coccidia. He was treated and brought back with another stool sample which then came back for round worms, hook worms and giardia. The vet had also asked me at the first appointment what had happened to the fur on his front legs, she felt that it appeared that he had been given an IV treatment. I called the breeder and was told that the puppies had gotten into bubble gum and it had to be cut out. (I wondered why she hadn’t told me this when she informed me about the shaved paw?) I also updated her on the puppy’s health again and she insinuated that this must have come from our home. I asked the vet about this and was told that because of the short time of him being with us it was not possible that he got any of this here, and my other dog was and always has been very healthy. At a 4 month vet check he weighed in at only 12lbs. The vet said that he would perhaps get to 35lb at the very most. I emailed the breeder with a few photos and asked her about the other puppies in the litter. She replied that a puppy she kept from the litter was on the small side also. I emailed back asking how much she weighed and received no response. In the meantime our puppy has had great difficulty holding his urine and is always thirsty. I spoke to the vet about it and were monitoring it. When he went in to get neutered at 5 ½ months I asked for blood and urine tests because I didn’t feel that he should still be having accidents in his crate at night and sometimes during the day. At night he is in for 6 hours and often wakes me to let him out or let me know that he has already wet the crate. During the day he was only in for less than 3 hours. Well the urine test came back positive for a UTI and the vet said that he had probably had it for a while. He went on antibiotics for 2 weeks and they wanted to retest in 2 weeks after he finished the meds. Well he is still wetting the crate occasionally and will be retested early next week. I think that something is just not right. The upside of all of this is that we love this little guy and our ALD loves him as well. He is part of our family. The breeder recently sent out an email to the families from the litter (I could not see the other names though) asking for updates and photos. I do not want to provide them for I think that perhaps this breeder may also be a broker. My puppy seems to have many issues that would be similar to a mill puppy. I would love to talk to other people who have adopted puppies from the same litter to get information on their health etc but am hesitant to post on the doodle sites. I have seen her in the breeder area of another site. I just want more information so I can make sure that my puppy is as healthy as can be. We thought that we would be getting a puppy that would develop into healthy 60lb adult. We paid $1600 for him and have spent many more hundreds so far. If there was a hereditary problem with the litter I just want to know so we can get him the treatment he needs and deserves. We love the little guy and want him to be a healthy mini sized (he is only 21 lbs at 6+ months) adult. Thanks so much for letting me vent and any advice that you might have.

[April Cliber]

Coccidia is something that ALL breeders struggle with at some time. If they say they don't, you can pretty much bet their lying. It's super common and frustrating to everyone. Pups that fly are especially susceptible to it. Pups need several worm treatments. It is possible that a treatment was missed.... I really don't know, but it does happen. Although giardia, coccidia & worms are associated with mills, it's not just mills that get them. If you breed long enough, you experience a bit of everything including these things. Giardia is found in ponds and streams. It's super common in rural areas.

I have meet Holly and spoken with her on several occasions. Rest assured she is not a broker. I haven't been to her home so can't say that I've seen her dogs & pups, however she has been an established, well liked breeder for many years. As breeders, we do all we can to ensure that we are only producing healthy pups, however there are certainly times that two very healthy, tested parents can produce a pup with problems. The term "health guarantee" is kind of misleading. It's really a health "warranty" as no one can guarantee that a living creature will be healthy months or years down the road.

I feel really bad for you and your pup, it's very sad and she's lucky to have you! I just wanted to share a little different perspective.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I'm curious, do you know why pups that fly are more susceptible to coccidia?

[April Cliber]

Because it's brought on by stress. They typically pick it up from the mom or another dog in the house. However, adult dogs have mature immune systems that are able to fight off the ill effects. Young pups don't have all their immunities yet. Here's an article.

Coccidia (Coccidiosis): A Cause of Diarrhea
Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
Race Foster, DVM

Coccidia are small protozoans (one-celled organisms) that live in the intestinal tracts of dogs and cats. They cause disease most commonly in puppies and kittens less than six months of age, in adult animals whose immune system is suppressed, or in animals who are stressed in other ways (e.g.; change in ownership, other disease present).

In dogs and cats, most coccidia are of the genus called Isospora. Isospora canis and I. ohioensis are the species most often encountered in dogs. Regardless of which species is present, we generally refer to the disease as coccidiosis. As a puppy ages, he tends to develop a natural immunity to the effects of coccidia. As an adult, he may carry coccidia in his intestines, and shed the cyst in the feces, but experience no ill effects.

How are coccidia transmitted?

A puppy is not born with the coccidia organisms in his intestine. However, once born, the puppy is frequently exposed to his mother's feces, and if the mother is shedding the infective cysts in her feces, then the young animals will likely ingest them and coccidia will develop within the young animal's intestines. Since young puppies, usually those less than six months of age, have no immunity to coccidia, the organisms reproduce in great numbers and parasitize the young animal's intestines. Oftentimes, this has severe effects.

From exposure to the coccidia in feces to the onset of the illness is about 13 days. Most puppies who are ill from coccidia are, therefore, two weeks of age and older. Although most infections are the result of spread from the mother, this is not always the case. Any infected puppy or kitten is contagious to other puppies or kittens. In breeding facilities, shelters, animal hospitals, etc., it is wise to isolate those infected from those that are not.

What are the symptoms of coccidiosis?

The primary sign of an animal suffering with coccidiosis is diarrhea. The diarrhea may be mild to severe depending on the level of infection. Blood and mucous may be present, especially in advanced cases. Severely affected animals may also vomit, lose their appetite, become dehydrated, and in some instances, die from the disease.

Most infected puppies encountered by the authors are in the four to twelve week age group. The possibility of coccidiosis should always be considered when a loose stool or diarrhea is encountered in this age group. A microscopic fecal exam by a veterinarian will detect the cysts confirming a diagnosis.

It should be mentioned that stress plays a role in the development of coccidiosis. It is not uncommon for a seemingly healthy puppy to arrive at his new home and develop diarrhea several days later leading to a diagnosis of coccidia. If the puppy has been at the new home for less than thirteen days, then he had coccidia before he arrived. Remember, the incubation period (from exposure to illness) is about thirteen days. If the puppy has been with his new owner several weeks, then the exposure to coccidia most likely occurred after the animal arrived at the new home.

What are the risks?

Although many cases are mild, it is not uncommon to see severe, bloody diarrhea result in dehydration and even death. This is most common in animals who are ill or infected with other parasites, bacteria, or viruses. Coccidiosis is very contagious, especially among young puppies. Entire kennels may become contaminated, with puppies of many age groups simultaneously affected.

What is the treatment of coccidiosis?

Fortunately, coccidiosis is treatable. Drugs such as sulfadimethoxine (Albon®) and trimethoprim-sulfadiazine (Tribrissen®) have been effective in the treatment and prevention of coccidia. Because these drugs do not kill the organisms, but rather inhibit their reproduction capabilities, elimination of coccidia from the intestine is not rapid. By stopping the ability of the protozoa to reproduce, time is allowed for the puppy's own immunity to develop and remove the organisms. Drug treatments of one to three weeks are usually required.

How is coccidiosis prevented or controlled?

Because coccidia is spread by the feces of carrier animals, it is very important to practice strict sanitation. All fecal material should be removed. Housing needs to be such that food and water cannot become contaminated with feces. Clean water should be provided at all times. Most disinfectants do not work well against coccidia; incineration of the feces, and steam cleaning, immersion in boiling water, or a 10% ammonia solution are the best methods to kill coccidia. Coccidia can withstand freezing.

Cockroaches and flies can mechanically carry coccidia from one place to another. Mice and other animals can ingest the coccidia and when killed and eaten by a dog, for instance, can infect the dog. Therefore, insect and rodent control is very important in preventing coccidiosis.

The coccidia species of dogs and cats do not infect humans.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Thanks for the explanation and interesting article.

[Lorraine Bromley]

I was wondering about the comments you made supporting this breeder. And with your understanding of breeders and breeder practices what would you do or suggest to her if this happened to you or one of your dogs that you had sold. What would you hope that your breeder colleagues would do for thier puppy and for her since they clearly have had various issues likely snow balling from the start. With the vets opinion pointing to that as well.

[April Cliber]

Because worms, coccidia & giardia are so common, I have never seen a contract that covers them. They are all treated relatively easily.

As far as the hair & scab issue.... I'd call the breeders vet and ask if the litter was seen for anything. The vet can confirm weather or not the pup had an IV. Puppies do get into things....

If it was the first litter for this breeding pair, size is really a guesstimation. Most breeders are very careful not to promise a certain size. My guess is that she she told her what size she thought the pups would end up being.

All I know about this situation is what was posted. I have had no contact with Holly in months. I just know that there are two sides to every story.... If the pup did get into gum, it explains the paws. The cocidia and giardia stink but pups get over it and do fine. The hook worms are preventable if parents are on heartguard BUT the hook worms weren't in the first sample. It is possible that it was picked up but it's also possible that he came with them.....

If tests conclude that the pup has a congenital bladder problem it would usually be covered under the warranty . BUT every contract is different. That's why owners need to thoroughly read a breeders contract before deciding if it's the breeder for them.

Let me clarify.... I am not saying that Holly did everything perfect, I honestly have no idea! It sounds like there most likely was an overall lack of communication on her part. I just wouldn't throw her in the mill or broker pile so quickly.

[Lorraine Bromley]

Thanks for giving some of the other side of things. So really when it comes to breeders its that contract, and not really any emotion that comes into the equation. I don't know what I would do as a breeder. As an owner I would be skeptical of the breeder. I think a vet would be able to notice whether the dog got into something like bubble gum in comparison to being IV'D and both arms is also strange. I also do find it odd she has been so alouf. Especiallly since you know her as a breeder and she has a good rep I would likely expect a bit more communication from her to help rectify the situation or explain the anomily. I hope she responds and gets the pup and the situation all hammered out to the best of all of their abilities.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

April, I appreciate your sticking your neck out to take part in this discussion; so few of the breeders are willing to do this, and it really helps to get the another perspective.
My question is this: Why would a breeder allow puppies to wander outdoors, on rural properties or otherwise, when they are so susceptible to these things. As you said, "Giardia is found in ponds and streams. It's super common in rural areas." Why would anyone allow puppies to come into contact with ponds & streams, then? And areas on farms where there is fecal matter from chickens & other livestock? Doesn't all that contribute to this?
I remember when I picked up my last puppy from her breeder. She was 8 or 9 weeks old, and the breeder did not want me to let her walk around outdoors at all for another couple of weeks; she was concerned about her picking up something from wild animals, birds, other dogs, etc. And I lived in a suburban neighborhood, not out in the country. Of course, I ignored her and took the pup right out in my yard the minute we got home. But hearing all this (and there is another similar case here on DK involving another pup from a different breeder) wouldn't it make more sense for all breeders to be this cautious with their puppies? Or at least not let them wander loose in barnyards, pastures, streams, or whatever?
I would really like to understand this. Thanks so much for participating.

[April Cliber]

Sorry, I should have explained more. I'm never going to get to bed.... :o)

You are correct, pups should never be allowed to wonder around ponds & streams. Mine never go in the back yard, only in the front yard in an area where the big dogs don't go. In rural areas many adult dogs are carriers but don't show symptoms. They can bring it in the house on paws. Or the mom can have a little poop on her rear and a pup can get it while climbing on her. Giardia even shows up in some well water so pups can get it from their clean water dish. My vet says that 80% of the dogs he sees have some amount of giardia in their fecal sample, but if they don't exhibit symptoms (diarrhea) they don't treat because adult dogs live fine with it. My adult dogs all got the giardia vaccination. It's somewhat controversial and is only effective about 60-70% of the time but it worked for me and my pups haven't had giardia in a few years, which is really nice! But I'm still careful because we have deer and I know they poop in the yard at times.

I'm in an all out war with coccidia right now. I swear if it's the last thing I do and if I have to invent the vaccine myself, I will figure out a way to prevent it!!! About 2-3 pups in each litter get it. That's not too bad but I don't think ANY should have it. My vet thinks I'm a little nutty and says there's no way to prevent it 100% of the time but gosh darn it I'll try until my dying breath! In the winter we don't get it, but in the summer/spring a few usually do..... I think those in very dry climates get it much less, maybe I'll move to Texas or New Mexico. :o)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thanks, April. You are really kind to take the time to help educate all of us about these things. I hope you do win that war, and maybe some kind of prize for inventing a new vaccine! :-)

[April Cliber]

The prize will be having pups that never get it! :o) There's a relatively new product call Marquis. It's actually not new but using it for dogs is. It's been used on cattle and horses for years. It's very expensive but a little goes a long way. It prevents pups from getting coccidia. If they already have it, it won't work and the pups need albon. If you give it on day 4, then 2,4,6,8 and 10 weeks of age by mouth it is suppose to prevent it!! I have pups due next week and will be trying this!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Looking forward to hear how it goes. Calla had coccidia when she was still at the breeder's home and she came from sunny southern California. I agree with Karen. It's wonderful that you as a breeder have taken the time to be so helpful in explaining all this to us. Thank you.