Our breeder's response to Ollie's hip dysplasis - hmmmmm

[StaceyW]

I think a number of you will find this exchange interesting (I took Breeders' names out) - start at the bottom and read to the top of the chain

Hi Breeder– thanks for the response. No way are we returning him – we love him and he is part of our family now. I wanted you to be aware so that you do what you can on your end to make sure your breeding dogs do not themselves have bad hips and for you to check Ollie’s parents specifically.



Re: how we discovered it: I noticed that he limps when he gets tired when we walk. Also – he has never jumped up on anyone – a plus – but very unusual in a puppy. He also has trouble with stairs and jumping into cars. Finally – he bunny hops when he plays which is a sign as well. We had him x-rayed on Monday when he was getting neutered and the vet confirmed that he has severe dysplasia on the left side. We are going to take Ollie to see an ortho surgeon next week to discuss the options but from what I understand he will likely have an osteotomy or a total hip replacement.



Fortunately – we got pet insurance and much of it will be covered. Our deductible on the insurance is $150 and then we pay 10% of all future services for the hip. Thus, I think as gesture of good faith, it would be nice if you would refund us $150 for the deductible but that is entirely up to you. We adore Ollie and will do whatever we can do make sure he lives a long healthy and active life. Thanks. Stacey







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From: Breeder
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 12:21 PM
To: Wolf, Stacey
Subject: Re: Oliver



Hi Stacey!!!!!

I"m so sorry that I'm so long in responding! We had a huge costume party here last night for our sons 10th birthday and I have been swarmed! _______told me someone called about a puppy but I thought he meant wanting one of the upcoming ones so I didnt' check msgs until after the party. I'm just reading your email and I'm soooooo sorry!!!!!! How did u find out he had this?? Wow.. that's really young to be getting it but from what I read it's a good thing u caught it young! It's better prognosis if you do than when they're older. I sure hope they can do something for him! Please keep in touch with his progress.

Did you get a guarantee from us? Our guarantee says we will pay 1/2 the money back and u return the puppy to us with 2 different written reports from two different vets. I'm sure you can understand why we do this. Hip dysplasia skips generations so often. We were planning on getting them tested but it's an hour away and that vet is the only one that does it anywhere in our area, that we know of, and is swarmed. We are waiting for them to have an opening. Some people tell us that there's still no guarantees with that because even if mom and dad have great hips it dosnt' mean their parents did. In the same litter.. u can have puppies with great hips and some without. I guess it's like children. There are no guarantees. But we will be more than happy to fulfil our guarantee. If u want to return him we will be sure he gets the best treatment available.

Please let me hear back exactly what the treatments are and what type of surgery, etc... _____and I are soo concerned for him :( We hate so bad to hear this. These guys grow under our care and we love them incredibly. Thanks for letting me know and I look forward to hearing back from you. We'd love to see pictures of him too when u get the chance!

Take care,
Breeder

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Wolf, Stacey wrote:

Hello – I have left two messages in the last week on your home voice mail but have not received a return phone call. I was calling to let you know that Ollie has hip dysplasia on the left side and is going to need significant treatment and surgery. He is a wonderful dog and we adore him but are very sad that he is going to have to go thru all of this. We wanted you to be aware so that you can make sure your parent dogs get their hips tested so that if this is genetic – you no longer breed those dogs so as to save other families and dogs from having to go thru with this. We would like you to consider refunding some or all of what we paid you for Ollie so that we can use it toward his soon-to-be significant medical expenses. Please respond to this email. Thank you. Stacey

[April Cliber]

The good news is that the doodle breeders that DO test typically do more testing then many purebred breeders do. And the doodle breeder groups, ALAA, GANA, premium breeders, require proof of all testing before you can become a member. Many purebred groups recommend testing but don't require it. The testing doodle breeders and organizations are on the right track.

One last thing....Even breeders that fully test have pups once in a while that end up with a genetic problem such as hip dysplasia. It's very heartbreaking but does happen. However by testing hopefully we can weed out most of those problems. And if a breeder is made aware of a genetic problem in a pup the breeding should NEVER be repeated. I know my hope is that 20 years from now doodles will be known as a very healthy dog. If enough breeders jump on board with testing it can happen. :o)

[F, Calla & Luca]

I wonder who we could check the legality with. I don't think the web is covered by the same rules as private phone conversations but, as sometimes happens, what I think the law is and what it actually is are two different things.

[April Cliber]

I'm not sure. I just know that a breeder on one of the breeder forums got into hot water for posting a private email. The person who wrote the email said she was suing and I believe the consensus was that it is illegal , but I never heard what the outcome was. It's just not something I'd want to mess with.

[F, Calla & Luca]

In case you need to have your head spin here is one internet lawyer's opinion, which leaves me with my head spinning, on:Legal Issues in Posting Private Email to Mailing Lists and Blogs. It appears it may be illegal to post private email but no one has sued and there are many factors to consider. I would think since the breeder is not actually mentioned it would be impossible for any case to be brought. Once again I am offering a completely unprofessional, and mainly uninformed, opinion. Enjoy :) the article.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

This has nothing to do with dogs..lol but is similuar. Got an email where a Professor protested against a students protest for discrimination..it came from a Michigan State Forgein Student who was complaing about American and the way we so call treat Muslims...The Professor sent a protest email back complaing about 911, rape and murder of Muslim women and children..and so on. The student filed a lawsuit claiming discrimination. The case was thrown out of court because it was a Private Email. If I find the email will post it...but think I did already delete it....but if this is true, this case can set a president over all cases like it where emails can not be brought into court.

[April Cliber]

EXACTLY!!

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

What would be the difference if you allowed your friends to come over and they read your private email. Or how about the Neman Marcus Cookie email, thats been around the computer 120,000,000,000,000,000 etc. times. If you don't want something repeated, than it should be your responsibility to "STATE" that in your email, such as....Do not make any copies or share this email, this is a private matter between you and I, Thank you for that understanding. Next point is... if it would happen and be illegal, how can you prove who copied or sent out the email without actually being there and witnessing it being done. Anyone can be on the other end of a computer...you never know.

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

How unfortunate for you all to have to go through this and I will pray Ollie just flies thru the surgery and recovery easily. I do however, agree with April, in the sense that it is truely a 'Buyer Beware" situation when choosing your breeder. I researched many months for the perfect breeder and her written health warrantee was a big factor.
I read every line and was sure I could live with it should something come up.

It would be heartbreaking to give your puppy back, and that is just a ridiculous stipulation in a warrantee, making a bad situation worse!
Hope some insight will be gleemed by this for future doodle buyers.
BTW... April is my Murphy's breeder, in case you were wondering who this perfect breeder was....:o)

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Another member of DK has a young doodle with hip dysplasia. The dog just had surgery. His breeder is doing some remunerative compensation and, of course, the dog is not being returned.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

http://www.malteseonly.com/lemon.html

Maybe it's a PA thing...but most breeding contracts here in PA and the Lemon Laws states for PA the breeder can request the dog be returned, for a full refund. Hannah is also the 2nd dog on DK to have Entropion, which more often happens in Chows, and Shar-pei's. My health guarentee was good for 1 year, on congenitil defects. She started having problems at 7 months. I also took her to 2 Vet's whom never seen her, and got their opinions. Dale Weaver from Deep Run Kennels, first offer was to return Hannah and get another puppy at 1/2 price in place of her. Hannah was already housebroken, 3 sets of obedience training at $150.00 each class, and could have gone into RallyO competitions, but because of her eyes this was all a major set back. Hannah was also trained to use for my disability. Dale asked for a week to think about this and what he would be willing to work out with me. Of course waiting a week was stressful for me, I love Hannah and didn't want to loose her or be forced to give her back, so yes I did write comments concerning this, but I also wrote follow ups on how everything was resolved. When I contacted Dale back, he offered to give me another puppy and allow me to keep Hannah. I countered offered his offer, allowing him to pay for her eyes to be done and her be spayed at the same time, and we call it even. I thought this was more fair for all of us. Dale also commented he didn't realize how attached I had become to Hannah and didn't mean to upset me for asking for her back, he thought I didn't want her, and that was not the case. Dale stood behind his contract 100%, Hannah is a beautiful, well behaved Doodle, and couldn't be happier with her.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I am very sorry that your Ollie has to go through this and you too. It is my belief that breeders request the return of the dog because the know no family will ever do this thus freeing them of every having to own the responsibility of the life they created.

Even if your breeder is not a member of the ALAA or ALCA I would report the breeder to those associations to make them aware of this breeder's unethical activities.

I have a vet that 2 hours and 45 minutes from my home (one way)! My dogs are seen by this vet once a year for specific testing. Another is 1 hour from me (one way). There is no excuse for not health testing breeding dogs. While it is true that two health tested and cleared dogs can produce a genetic flaw you will see much less of it in lines that have detailed history of parents, grand parents, great grands and so on.

I often hear people tell me they don't want to pay the high price of my dogs but I will tell you that we stand behind them 100% and would never ask for one of them to be returned. What in the world would a breeder want with a dog that is ill? seriously? How hard would it be to rehome that dog, VERY? I know you would never return your dog and so does your breeder.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

I think the rehoming of a Doodle in these cases would depend on the severity of the illness. Eye surgery, Spaying...cost little over $500.00, rehoming a dog thats been sold already for $800.00 to 1,000.00 +. Than a rehoming fee added on top of what the dog was sold for...some times breeders are not loosing. People will purchase a rehome dog for $500 to $600 +...it might take a little bit, but when people see the dog has it's issues taken care of, and they are paying $500 verse's 1,000+...they are not stupid either, if they want a good dog as a family pet.