De-sexing Puppies At An Early Age

[Jerry Kandel]

I posted this in another section but perhaps I should have it here:

We are buying a Labradoodle from a reputable breeder who requires that the puppies be de-sexed at either six or seven weeks. I know she belongs to the Australian Labradoodle Assn. and while I am not sure I believe it is they who require their members to de-sex the puppies prior to releasing them (other than selling a dog for breeding purposes). I am not knowledgeable in this area and didn't think anything of it until I posted something in another site and was attacked on all fronts - with mostly everyone stating it would be unhealthy for the dog - especially long-term. Then someone posted the following article:

http://naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

So my question is whether those of you who purchased Labradoodles from breeders who required this - does/did it concern you and what are your opinions after reading the above article?

[Diane Dolphin Rocker]

Hi Jerry - as a breeder this was something that I spent a HUGE amount of time researching. And what I found is this: Anybody can post anything they want on the internet. For every article you can find bashing ESN, there is another in support of it. It is really important to note though, that when you find articles that are discussing the negative effects of ESN, most are talking about surgeries performed at anything less than 1 year old. Which includes all of those dogs out there done at 6 months. In the article that you provided a link for, more than 50% of the references were from studies performed before 1995 (some as old as 1968!), before the ESN's of 6 week old pups were even considered. My personal experience with it has been great. The puppies that were operated on at 7 weeks came home from the vet like nothing had happened. They were eating, drinking, and wrestling although I tried very hard to seperate them and keep them inactive. They paid no attention to their incisions whatsoever (although I do pay extra for the laser surgery so there is very little bleeding and only a few internal stitches). In contrast to that, one of my male pups that had an undescended testicle at 7 weeks and had the surgery at 5 months instead, was vomiting that evening, needed a cone for 2 days, and layed around for 3 days before he was back to normal. I have read many, many articles and veterinary papers on this subject, and IMHO, none of them have offered definitive proof that there is a difference between spaying/neutering at 6 months vs. 7 weeks. I think that there may be a difference between dogs done at less than year vs. older than one (again, the issue that most of these papers are discussing), but the implications of allowing all those dogs to reach sexual maturity are just scary! Anyway, just thought I'd offer up one breeder's perspective..... Good luck with your pup!

[Jerry Kandel]

Well it seems we have a problem: a few hours ago I sent this breeder a message simply asking her what her opinion was on the article I noted above. I didn't even get into her breeding practice - merely asking her if she thought the article had any merit. She just wrote back to me that because I am questioning her practice and because I have no confidence in her she is returning my deposit and telling me to take my business elsewhere. At this point I don't want to give the name of the breeder but to say the least we are totally angry and pissed off (if I can say that). As mentioned, we have gone through a lot this past year - we have mourned for a Golden Retriever that we lost - waited awhile and then did a lot of research on what type of dog we wanted and where we should get it. We took a two hour trip to her house to see the parents - fell in love with them - gave her a deposit and expected to pick the puppy up in six weeks. I wrote back to her and informed her that we have a contractual agreement and I expected her to keep our place in the litter (there are eight puppies and we are #3 on the list). Does anyone have any experience with this - and because I gave her a deposit and signed a contract - can't we force her to maintain our place in the litter picking process?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Jerry, why would you want to buy a puppy from someone who is unwilling to address your fears or concerns and expects you to either take her word for things or she's going to renege on your contract? Do you really want to give your hard-earned $2500 to such a person? If she can't be supportive now, before you even get the dog, how much support can you count on after you have your puppy? What if some health or behavior issues arise, or you just have a question or need some guidance? The 12-15 year relationship you will have with your dog extends to your relationship with your breeder. Do you want that relationship to be one in which you are forbidden to question anything? There are dozens of fine ALD breeders with puppies available who will be there to support you for years. There is no shortage of pups available, believe me. If this woman flies off the handle with a customer because he dares to ask a question, she doesn't deserve your business. Good riddance, better you found out now what you are dealing with.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Is the breeder a member of dk? If so, perhaps just reading the discussion angered her. I don't think this discussion was a slur on her or her practices, but some people are hypersensitive. I would again contact her and be diplomatically nice - your goal is a pup. I would let her know how your research led you to her and that you have confidence in her; that you just want to be aware of newer practices. Tell her that, of course you want one of her pups - after all you drove four hours round trip to meet her and her dogs; gave her a deposit, signed a contract. A contract, by the way that goes two ways - binding both of you.

[Jerry Kandel]

Thank you

Yes, I do believe she is a member here and perhaps read this thread. I totally am unaware of anything malicious and there definitely was no slur intended. To Karen and Jack: the main reason I wanted to continue with this breeder is that we so much adore the parents of this litter. Also, when you set your mind to a puppy coming into your lives at a certain date - you look forward with as much anticipation as possible of picking up that puppy. To Nancy and Ned: I pretty much stated what you have recommended (I haven't heard back from her). As far as I am concerned - all she needs to do is produce the puppy we were promised - I can always find proper support from other resources.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I wish you the best! Happy Thanksgiving.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

While it may be true that anyone can post anything they want on the internet, some sources are more reputable than others, namely, those which present scholarly and peer reviewed articles. The Journal of American Veterinary Medicine should be a pretty good source:

Early-age neutering
Early-age neutering (or prepubertal gonadectomy - the removal of the ovaries or testes before the onset of puberty) is typically performed in dogs and cats between 8 and 16 weeks of age, as compared to the conventional 6 to 8 months. It is used mainly in animal sheltering and rescue where puppies and kittens can be neutered before being adopted out, eliminating non-compliance with sterilisation agreement, which is typically above 40%.[21] The American Veterinary Medical Association, American Animal Hospital Association and the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association support the procedure for population control, provided that the veterinarian uses his/her best knowledge when making the decision about the age at neutering.[40][41][42] As is with conventional age neutering.

While the non-age specific risks and benefits cited above also apply to early-age neutering, various studies indicate that the procedure is safe and not associated with increased mortality or serious health and behavioral problems when compared to conventional age neutering.[43][44][45][46][47] Anesthesia recovery in young animals is usually more rapid and there are fewer complications.[47][48] One serious downside is that in female dogs, there is an increasing risk of urinary incontinence the earlier the procedure is carried out. It is recommended that female dogs be spayed no earlier than 3 to 4 months of age.[44]

One study showed the incidence of hip dysplasia increased to 6.7% for dogs neutered before 5.5 months compared to 4.7% for dogs neutered after 5.5 months, although the cases associated with early age neutering seems to be of a less severe form. There was no association between age of neutering and arthritis or long-bone fractures.[44] Another study showed no correlation between age of neutering and musculoskeletal problems.[46] A study of large breed dogs with cranial cruciate ligament rupture associated early-age neutering with the development of an excessive tibial plateau angle[49] Female dogs neutered early are much more likely to develop cystitis although the risk does not appear to be chronic. Two studies showed an increased risk of canine parvovirus infection, which one of the study attributed to the increased susceptibility of young dogs rather than long term immune suppression.[44][46]

In terms of behavior in dogs, separation anxiety, escape behavior and inappropriate elimination are reduced while noise phobia and sexual behavior was increased. In males with aggression issues, earlier neutering may increase barking.

The sources for this information, indicated by the footnotes, is JAVMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutering#Early-age_neutering

With all due respect to you, and I'm sure you are sincere in your beliefs, a breeder whose policy is to do ESN is unlikely to present any downside to it; in order for anyone to make an informed choice on any issue, they need impartial information.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, I wish you luck, Jerry, and I truly hope you get the exact puppy you want and have nothing but pleasure with him/her for many many years.
To answer one of the original questions in your post, the ALAA does NOT require ESN. From their Breeder Code of Ethics:

"I shall not sell or dispose of a puppy under the age of 8 weeks. I will wean, desex OR place under a spay/neuter contract non-breeding puppy/s"

http://www.ilainc.com/CodeofEthics.html

Good luck, and please post photos of your puppy when you get it!

[shelly]

Jerry,
There's a breeder on DK that has beautiful labradoodles(Noble Vestal Labradoodles) perhaps she can help you out best. I had a golden retriever who died of cancer at 10. He was neutered at 6 months. I think it's just mere coincidences about the neutering and incidence of cancer.. You'll probably find cases to support BOTH ends of the issue. Good luck! I'll be following to see what everyone says. Our aussiedoodle was spayed at 5 months because the vet said she could go into heat by 6 months, and we didn't want that to happen.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

As a breeder~ I have done many many many ES&N's and had 1 issue at the fault of the vet who nicked his ureter causing the puppy to release urine into his system, poisoning the puppy... This could have been done if he had been larger as well and was due to the carelessness of the vet.

I have seen a recent study where dogs were compared based on the age they were desexed and dogs that were never desexed. The study showed that there was little to no evidence that dogs had any higher health risks being desexed early.

My puppies' incisions are no longer than 1/4 of an inch, they come home a hour or so after surgery, do not need aggressive pain management, are up eating and drinking a few hours later and playing that night or the next morning. In comparison to an adult dog who required at least overnight stay with the vet, special cone around their neck, pain meds and restricted activity! As the breeder I would rather be the responsible party caring for a puppy/dog who suffered ill from desexing vs my client, most ill cases happen on the table or a few hours post op.

I also see multiple wanna-be dog owners take the dogs who they have purchased with limited rights and try to breed it without any experience or knowledge of what is behind their dog! You will see it here with people who think they have the best dog in the world and want to stud it out : )

[shelly]

I never ever heard that this could be done so early. Definitely something to think about. And YES! I was so worried about the surgery AND the after care. Does the client pay for the vet services? You are so right and I am sure your clients were relieved as well. Thanks for your 'breeder insight'! I knew you could shed light on the subject!!! THANKS!

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

I pay for it! It is something I do on all of my puppies unless I feel it should be held back as a breeder.