Best Time to Spay Your Doodle?

[Shari Becker]

Hello all, I am totally baffled by differing pieces of advice that I received about when to spay Lexi.

We have two vets. One who is far away and we consult with on more holistic issues, and one who is local and urban. Our first vet (holistic, country) is fierce that it is healthiest for a dog to cycle once before being spayed. When we visited our local vet, she was horrified that at 7 months, Lexi isn't spayed. She told me that I need to spay her immediately or else she'll have a higher chance of getting Mammary cancer. However, she doesn't do any surgical work.

I called back first vet who basically said she didn't want to spay Lexi - that ideas about spaying are changing, and it's best to wait.

My husband re-read his Monks of Skeet book, and apparently they recommend waiting until one cycle, too, so we decided to wait. We know the holistic vet is an excellent surgeon, and we would trust her to do the procedure...

HOWEVER, just this morning, my husband was at our small, neighborhood dog park and an un-neutered male Lhasa began chasing Lexi and tried to mount her three times. My husband had to ask the owner to keep her dog away from our puppy.

Still, it was stressful. We did a little more research online tonight. It's clear that there is a wide window for spaying ... until 15 months is considered legitimate. But what we didn't know is that Lexi would have to be kept in our city condo unit away from other dogs for three weeks, with dog pads, and then we'd have to wait until all the swelling goes down before she could be neutered. We don't have a yard. We rely on that dog park for all her fun, running, socializing.... We want to do what's best for the dog. But we are totally baffled, and we'd love any insight folks have....

Thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

We recently had a long discussion here on this topic, I'll try to find it for you. The consensus, with links to current veterinary data, is that it is best to spay before the first cycle, at around 5-6 months. The thinking that a dog should go through one cycle first is outdated.

The surgery is harder on the dog and more complicated (also more expensive) after a dog has cycled at least once.

That said, it's water under the bridge; Lexi is apparently in heat. It is absolutely crucial that you not allow her anywhere near intact male dogs. She'll have to be walked on a leash until the heat is over. 

I have never heard of a general practice vet who doesn't do spay or neuter surgery. I am sure there is someone competent in your area who could do it as soon as possible.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is not the discussion I was referring to, but it has some good info. I'll keep looking:

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/best-age-to-have-a-female-...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, here is the discussion I was looking for, which has some good references in it: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/thefoodgroup/forum/topics/so-conf...

[Shari Becker]

Oh Crud. Are you sure? Is there a way for me to check? She's been a little off for the past two days, but mostly sleeping a ton. I thought she was having a growth spurt. Wouldn't I see blood? The male wouldn't have tried to mount her just because she's cute? :-)

I guess the decision may have been made for me. We literally saw the city vet 10 days ago, and she said she saw no signs of heat. I thought we had time. She's just shy of 7 months and not tiny. (FYI - The vet runs a wellness clinic, and refers her patients out to local hospitals. We are close to Tufts and a very good MSPCA-run hospital...)

Anyhow, I will call the country vet tomorrow for more input. And I will lecture my husband 'again' on how he should have put her leash right back on and brought her home when the male started chasing her. His response, "Oh, think about how cute Lhasa Doodle puppies would be" was only funny before you pointed out that she's likely in heat. 

Thanks.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I thought that you were saying that she was in heat, I misunderstood what you were saying about the swelling, etc.

But no, you would not necessarily see blood. I never did. They keep themselves clean with constant licking. You would see her licking at herself, and the vulva would be very swollen and red. 

Run, do not walk, to the vet and have it done now if possible. If she's going to be out of commission, it might as well be now with the cold weather. 

I don't think her breeder would think Lhasa Doodle puppies were funny either, lol. :)

[Robin & Josie]

For what it's worth, my first dog, a Wheaten Terrier (not really relevant), went into heat the day before she was scheduled to be spayed (at about 6 months). The vet would not do the surgery until the heat was over. The reason was because they are very engorged with blood during this time and the surgery is much more risky. So if she IS in heat, your vet may not do the surgery until after. 

As a result, we had to keep disposable diapers on her for 3-4 weeks (I cut a hole for her tail), because she did drip blood. Not copious amounts, but I didn't want any blood dripping around my house, naturally. We took the diaper off when she was outside, but we had to be very careful, as has been mentioned, because male dogs will, apparently, jump through cement walls to get to a female in heat.

Our current puppy was spayed before we got her (at about 8 weeks, I believe). I haven't read the discussion above, but I'm sure it's controversial (and doesn't apply to you, obviously). The breeder told us that it was "routine and safe". I did some reading, and like circumcision - there are fans and foes. (And, by the way, male dogs are always jumping on Josie, too. She also very cute :) but certainly not in heat, so who knows?) My husband doesn't like it ;) 

Our vet was not pleased and would have recommended 6 months (prior to first cycle). Oh well. That didn't work out for our Wheaten and she lived to be 15 and half with no cancer issues.

I think the early spay by breeders is to prevent people from breeding their puppies. I remember signing an agreement that we wouldn't breed our Wheaten puppy (not that the breeder would have ever known). I guess our current breeder (and others, as well), don't want to leave that potential eventuality to chance. They are very particular about maintaining the "lines" and making sure the parents are health tested etc. I believe it is quite common these days. Obviously there are vets that are OK with it. 

Meantime, for us, what's done is done. Just sharing our two experiences for your consideration.

[Sally S Miles]

The males will know if she is in heat before she does - some are messy and others are not.    If you have a female in estrus you will need to also be aware that the smell carries quite a ways, so depending on your condo there could be wandering males about.

An alpha male will try to mount her regardless - an inexperienced male might try to mount her in greeting - but not because she is cute. She may be emanating the hormonal change even if not quite in heat.

I walked away from several dogs due to insistence on late spay, my life does not lend itself to such and the day she turned seven months, our girl was spayed.   I have seen veterinarians who did not do dental work, but one who does not spay is more than a bit weird to me but since she  leans on the holistic side of things in that many do not do invasive procedures due to religious or personal belief. I would save that one for back up on other things such as diet, mental, and so on.

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

This is and has been very controversial for years and there is as much research for doing it early, however, that is now older research, as there is for waiting as there is for how long to wait. So, that being said, the factors to take into consideration are two that you mentioned certainly. The inconvenience of having a dog in heat, given your living arrangement, may just not be an option for you and secondly, it only takes a second for a dog to inseminate a female so unless she is always on a leash at the dog park, you'd have to be super diligent with her until her surgery. And being on a leash for months at a dog park certainly defeats the purpose.
I am sure there are many Vets who do the surgery at around 5-6 months, and there are Spay and Neuter Clinics to consider as well. You just go there for the surgery, they are not your regular vet.
I did have one neutered at 7 weeks before I recieved him and since then, with new research, my breeder no longer did this and we waited until our female was about 5-6 months as suggested. I too did not want to deal with her being in heat or keep her on a leash for possibly another 6-8 months. So it really is what you are comfortable with, she is your dog. Good luck with your decision, but when the risk of her getting pregnant are even miniscule....I'd not hesitate and in your situation the risk is just too high. ANd as Karen said, I doubt your breeder would be happy with any pregnancy with one of her doodles.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Sue, you and Shari have the same breeder. :))

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

HA! Now I KNOW the breeder would not be happy with one of her doodles getting pregnant!!!! April and I talked at length about the best time to spay Bella and Im sure she would be very helpful ,Shari ,if you give her a call. She keeps up with her research, as I mentioned, and being as one of my pups was an early neuter and the second one not, I wanted to understand the reasons. She is very versed in what is best for her dogs. I can just hear her screeching at the thought of an unwanted pregnancy Karen, can't you?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yep. :)

[Shari Becker]

Hi Sue! I love my Cliberdoodle! I would screech at the thought of puppies, too, so there would be multiple shrieks throughout the US! Trust me when I write that having a litter of Lhasa Doodle puppies in my little condo is the very last thing in the world that I want.

I find this issue very challenging because there seems to be completely logical reasoning on both sides. The holistic vet asked me, "Would you give a hysterectomy to a 12-year-old girl who hadn't even had her period yet?" That resonated with me. But there's something to be said about taking care of it when there is no risk of er ... an accident, too...

The vet said today that she may have well started a first heat - and that the male dog knew before we all did (even before Lexi) - and if that's the case, we have missed the boat, and the decision is made for us. I'm not sure how we make that determination though. (She's not 7 months yet, either, Karen. Almost.) 

I have an appointment to talk to April about it tomorrow! Thanks.