Do your doodles fight??

[Stella]

I already posted this in the 'multiple doodles' group, but I figured the more brains on the matter, the more help I can get!!

 

We have two male labradoodles, both were neutered at five months old.  Hartley, our older F1 is the larger of the two (80lb) almost three years old and we had him for a year and a quarter before we added the second.  Chase, our second is a multigen, he is smaller at 50lb and is almost two years old.  They have both been to socialisation and obediance classes.

 

Hartley is very sociable, loves to meet new people, meet new dogs, and has played with many other dogs without problem. 

 

Chase from the day we got him has been 'fiesty', he used to pee on Hartleys bed, takes toys from him, and generally pushes him around.  At home, Chase is cheeky, pushy, and bullies Hartley.  But, when we go out he is fearful of new people, new dogs, pilons, balloons,  his own reflection, and has fear based aggression towards other dogs.  (He was attacked at nine months old at a dog park, which seemed to began his issues with other dogs)

 

Our two dogs have 'tolerated' each other since we bought Chase home.  They sleep on seperate beds, do not share each others space well, and it took us months before we could get them to travel in the car together without fighting.  We kept thinking that as they got older they would work out who was who in the doggy pecking order and that they would get over this stage of fighting.  But, lately things are escalating, they are fighting more often (in the car, the garden and in the house) and Hartley is getting hurt - scratches on his face, punctures on his leg, and today his leg was actually cut open. 

 

I know we need to get a trainer to help. We moved to a new home earlier in this year and are too far away to go to our old trainer, who we loved.  We now live in a rural area with no local dog training options.  I feel that it isn't fair to Hartley to keep being bullied and beaten up on.  I am so frustrated that after being together for almost a year and a half, they are still fighting.

 

Any advice, ideas, suggestions, morale support would be very welcome.

[Ginny Nightingale]

I have a similar type dog who bullies my other dog and shows fear when out and about BUT nothing like this--this seems more extreme. Luckily, my less aggressive dog just hides or walks away from the other one and we never have fighting. Neither dog ever growls or shows teeth, so it is not a serious problem. I do feel bad for the bullied dog however since she has given up on ever having a toy or her own space. I make sure that she gets separated from the other dog if they have treats, though.
But, I don't have a clue about how to solve your problem, except to say that if you can't work with a trainer, you may want to consider offering Chase up for adoption to another family that only has him and no other dog. That is an extreme solution, however, and someone else may have better advice. Good luck and don't give up!

[Ginny Nightingale]

I have to add that Lyric growled over a bone for the very first time today--I am hoping it is because she is heat. She is supposed to be bred Monday and she has been going back and forth between the breeder's house and mine, so this has been a strange week for her. I have never heard her growl before at another dog--so, I guess it can happen when you least expect it!

[Suzann, Rosey & Bandit]

oh gosh this sounds terrible. Rosey and Bandit have been paw in paw since day 1 they are only 5 months apart and boy/girl. I can't even tell who is dominant just seems to change given the situation. You definitely need a behaviorist to analyze the situation to help see what can be done. good luck,this is a very difficult situation!

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

I have only had my second doodle since July. Webber is almost 3 and Seda is 7.5 months. They play fight with teeth, growling and throwing each other around. But there is never anyone getting hurt or any wounds. In a struggle over a toy Webber lets Seda have it. Initially, he took all the toys. Your situation concerns me, given the amount of time it has been going on. I purposely got a second dog of a different sex in the hopes that they wouldn't fight. My neighbors have two males that get into some scary fights but they have let the dogs work it out. It hasn't been a year though. I don't know what to do other than getting a behaviorist in to diagnose the problem. I am assuming they get individual attention, running exercise, and are not fighting over you.

[Kyoko]

Charlie has fear issues and is not very good with other dogs. However, she and my old Chow Chow lives peacefully in the house. They don't play together nor sleep together, But they are OK with each other. Charlie does show some respect to the old chow, Butter, and if she wants what he is eating, she waits until he leave the bowl, and procede. Ony time when she lets him know her position is when he tries to go into her crate, and when he sniffs her behind. She then will give him a quick growl to let him know her displeasure. But if one of your dog is getting hurt, it sounds as you really need behavioral specialist / really good trainer....

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

I agree that this sounds like a very serious situation. Are you familiar with the Leerburg website? It is a huge site (over 10,000 pages) regarding dog issues-everything from puppies to dominant/agressive dogs. I don't know their techniques for dominance/aggression but since you do not have a trainer or behaviorist available in your area it might be worth searching this site for info and see how it "feels" to you. I do know that they are big on pack structure for the family dog (s) and making sure that YOU are at the top! Here is the link to the site if you would like to take a look:

https://leerburg.com/301.htm

Also, if you do not already know how to safely break up a serious dog fight without getting injured yourself, they offer this information on the site as well. You may find yourself in that situation and it would be good to be prepared.

I am so sorry to hear that your boys have not bonded and hope you are able to find a way for you to all live together in peace.

[Lesley, Wellington & Bingley]

We had these issues some years ago. I was only a child then but remember it oh so well. My Tibetan Terrier Fudge was 2 yars old, and an entire male. We tried to rehome an Italian Spinone from a friend. He was also an entire male and a similar age. We had the Spinone for just over a year, but the fighting never got any better. Luckily the friends circumstances changed and she was able to take the Spinone back.

It was hell to live with two dogs that fought. The end point was when the two dogs went through a glass door during a fight. They would never have been friends and they were both far happier living apart.

Good luck with your two. I agree a behaviourist will be able to add some light to the situation and come up with possible solutions.

[Diane, Baker & Oskar]

Years ago, we had an adult male schnauzer who was gentle & complacent. We brought in a male lab puppy, thinking they would be great friends. When the lab was about 7 months old, he started pinning any dog he encountered...no blood, he'd just pin them down, lots of growling. The two dogs had total access to the house & yard until all of a sudden there would be fights in the garage where they slept or in the hallway where we couldn't see them. Both dogs were neutered.

Long story short, the schnauzer ended up with deep puncture wounds to his head on 3 occasions. We called in a dog therapist who observed them together over a period of time & concluded that the problem was the schnauzer who refused to submit. Her words were "I give the lab a lot of credit, because he could have killed the schnauzer by now".

We didn't have the heart to find a home for one of them & lived with this situation for years. It ended up that neither could be in the house anymore, and it totally changed the dynamics for them. They lived outside in separate dog houses & we were always on high alert for problems. The quality of life for both of them changed and, in retrospect, it was not fair to either of them.

I hope your situation has a happy ending. I feel for you & wish you the best of luck. Please post progress reports as time goes on.

[Sandy]

I'm sure you've already done this - but have you e-mailed Erin for advice? Or even asked if she potentially would be willing to make a road trip if you paid her for it? I know that would be expensive, but if the alternative is your sanity or giving up Chase, it might be worth it.

[Stella]

I have contact Erin, but haven't heard back from her yet. She had previously suggested an Ian Dunbar DVD on aggression that might be helpful. I am also considering if we came down to Cambridge a couple of Saturdays in a row if she might give up her day off to work with us. (She has classses all day Sunday so that wouldn't work). The only problem with that is that Dave works weekends so I would have to bring both dogs on my own. I feel that we have to at least try something, I don't want to feel we gave up on the situation. Dave is very attached to Chase and I don't think he would ever want to give him up. But, I feel that Hartley was there first and if he is being made miserable we have to consider that. It is so tough because this is n't something that happens all the time, but when it does it seems to be getting more serious.

[Stella]

Thanks guys for your advice and support. I love both my dogs, but don't want either of them to be unhappy. The strange thing is that the fights seem to happen without warning - rarely is there any growling first, they just go at it. Yesterday we were out playing fetch in the yard without a problem. We came into the house, I turned my back to take off my shoes and they started to fight. They do have play fights where they wrestle without anyone getting hurt, but yesterday was full on. I think I am more stressed about it all right now as we are away for the weekend and I have had to leave the dogs at the kennels this morrning with Hartleys leg bandaged. Luckily it is a small kennel where they can keep a close eye on them. (Ironically, we are away because we are going to watch Cesar Milan!!).
Both dogs get lots of exercise, they are walked at least one or two times a day, and we have an acreage that they can run around too. We play fetch, swim in the summer, and practice our obediance training from when we used to go to classes. I also take them into town regularly so they can see people and other dogs.
My husband not be happy to know that I am even thinking this, but I have been considering that Chase might need to be rehomed. He is such a clown and he makes us laugh, but I think we both know that he would be better in a house where he was the only dog and could have his owners all to himself - he is very loving and gets jelous if we pay attention to Hartley. I worry that Hartley will lose his trust in us if this situation continues.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

My understanding is that there are always warning signs before a fight if we know how to read the dog's body language (which I admit I do NOT know). So there possibly may have been or may be signals going on between them that you are not picking up on. You know, the ones Cesar always points out!! :) We once had a dog who was dog aggressive and he NEVER made a sound. He was an older rescue and the way we discovered this aggression was because a boxer walked up to us one day and our dog had the boxer on the ground before I could even blink! NOT a SOUND!!