Does Size Matter?

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

From time to time we hear the unfortunate news about dog attacks.  Just this past weekend, Kathy Hoppe posted her husband was seriously injured by a Great Dane ( to me, that many stitches can be classified as serious).

 

DH, (aka FJ),  and I were discussing dog bites, Kathy Hoppe's discussion, and what happened to me the other night.  

 

Now don't laugh~~ ya, go ahead because if any of you would have a hidden camera you would have laughed.  I was also attacked while riding my bite on Saturday. SIX Viscous Dogs broke away from their crazy lady owner and attacked me.  I stopped, but to no avail, they descended upon my ankles and tried to take chunks out.  Yes, my ankles are getting fat why the heck do you think I am riding a bike?.  They were relentless.  Each taking turns, especially the one who was about 10 months old.  Behind him was an eight week old puppy he seemed to be training.  The owner was able to hold on to three of the dogs but the others got out of control.  At first, being a dog lover I am, I tried to stop to make sure they did not come to far out into the street and get hit by a car.  But the attack continued. Once I thought she had some sort of control over the ones who were off-leash, I started back down the street.  The vicious teenager and his puppy sidekick trailing behind followed me a block growling and biting and..............This situation was out of control and it took  10 minutes before the owner was able to get her dogs inside ( off my darn ankle I mean) and for me to bike on my way.

Okay, these dogs range anywhere from 2 pounds to 6 pounds.  Yorkie.  Snappy, biting, but really cute Yorkies.

So back to DH and our discussion:

So what is the difference?  Do you put a dog down when it is vicious because of size?  The damage of a Great Dane is no comparison to what these six vicious, out of control, Yorkies were attempting to do to me.

When to put a dog down?  What is out of control?  A biting dog?  If it has a history of biting once? Twice.  Three times AND the probability it will bite again if given the chance or gets loose or the owner looks away for 2 seconds, breaks its leash? One who bites but can be controlled by its' owner but never can be trusted?  Police dogs are vicious but are controlled by a human who was trained and so was the dog.  Many questions and situations. 

 

IF YOU KNEW YOUR DOG may bite, would you put it down before or after the bite?

Would love to hear your thoughts.  Please don't tell me Doodles don't bite.  They have.  Poodles also have a high bite statistic compared to some breeds, so it is somewhere ( however recessive? )  in our dogs temperment. 

 

Any thoughts about putting down 6 Yorkies vs. The Large Dane, Boxer, German Shepard, the Doodle?

[Camilla and Darwin]

It's not letting me edit my comment but what I was going to add is that if it was just DH and I like it is now, with no children I would definitely contact a trainer. And work though the issues, no matter how long it took. Of course, things would have to be adjusted, I wouldn't allow him near children, and I would do everything I could to prevent him being in a situation that would bring aggression to the surface.

[Cindy M, Zachary & the Frenchies]

Unfortunately it is extremely hard to rehome dogs that have a bite history. The new owner takes on a huge liability because they don't have the luxury of ignorance. I think a far better remedy is good supervision of young kids and dogs because as you said they will each act according to their nature.I think preventing good dogs from developing an unacceptable response to irritation and being forever branded is a responsibility for all owners of large breed dogs (I used to have English Bulldogs - wonderful temperments - but a really nasty bit should it happen). I never let them near kids unsupervised even though 2 of them LOVED children.

[Camilla and Darwin]

I agree that prevention is key, and even the best dog should be supervised around children. I am also a firm believer in teaching children proper dog handling manners. I don't think I will ever be in the situation where my dog would bite someone, because I AM so careful.

I am simply saying that if it DID come down to my dog actually biting my child, I would not keep the dog.

[Lisa, Daisy & Dexter]

Camilla, I would have to disagree with you here....it's either deal with it on your own or you would have to put him down. When Zach bit (a child, not mine). Not making excuses but there was food involved and lots of commotion and people. DH wanted to put him down. My cousin was 7 and kept trying to get him to play...and he snapped at her, broke skin on her arm. The parents were like NO you can't put him down, he didn't mean it. He is so sweet. WE loved that dog so much we couldn't bare the thought of putting HIM in harms way. What if he bit again, that would have been our fault and who knows what fate the dog would have. So we had two options: put him down or ensure he was never able to do it again. WE made sure it would never happen again. Our daughter was little and he never bit her...and she knew how to be around him.

Zach was a rescue, he was 5 months old when we got him and had never been socialized. WE HAD NO IDEA he had the propensity to bite (hey we were young and stupid) , he was 1 year old when he bit. He never bit again but we treated him as if he might. He lived to be 15.

[Camilla and Darwin]

I am almost positive that if Darwin bit my child (if I had one), the DRC would take him. There are many non-child homes that could provide a better place for him.

I am NOT one of those people who rehomes a dog when things get tough. At this point, we would do anything to help Darwin if he had problems arise. When we are around children with Darwin now I have taken every possible precaution to make sure he is comfortable, and that they know the rules.

I am simply saying that when it comes down to it, my child's safety WOULD be more important to me. Those are my priorities. I recognize that in many cases you can't rehome the dog, and if that were the case I would attempt training rather than put the dog down. But, if putting the dog in a better home, away from where he could hurt people was an option, I would take it.

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

Ok I have to add an afterthought to my response. About 14 years ago my ex-husband and I had a very sweet Heinz 57 dog. He was the sweetest gentlest dog. We had a terrible neighbor with a very mean Siberian husky name Demon (very fitting). There son who was 15 at the time used to walk Demon and had zero contol over him. When we let Bruiser out he was always on his run-line the kid would walk Demon into our yard and he would growl at bruiser and snap at him. Back and forth we went with the moron parents and the police. One day Demon got loose from the kid while walking next to our yard and Demon bit bruiser 6 times that required stitches. Fast forward 4 months the boy that walked Demon rode his bike across our yard under bruisers
line and bruiser attacked him and he had to get over 200 stitches. Never did he growl at one other person ever but he associated this kid and Demon. Since we had been back and forth with the police previous to this they had told us to put up a no trespassing sign and a beware of the dog sign to keep this kid and dog out of our yard. The family took us to court over the attack and the judge turned around and fined THEM $500 for
trespassing. So I guess I can't say every bite is because of an owner not training because a dog can absolutely be provoked.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Denise, VERY INTERESTING!

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

I think a bite is a bite no matter the size of the dog - a worker at the Home Depot here in Canada bent down to a shopping cart to say hi to a customers shitzu (which in itself was stupid) but the dog bit her nose off. Dogs are now banned from Home Depot. No repercussions on the dog at all which i find wrong (she was fined and the dog has to be muzzled at least)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/04/18/ot-small-dog-...

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110421/home-depot-dog-ban-110421/

 

[F, Calla & Luca]

I don't think there is or perhaps should be a dog who will never bite. The issue is an unprovoked attack. Riding a bike or walking by a dog is NOT provocation. Dogs who would bite someone under those circumstances should never get the opportunity to do so. But if a dog were to be subjected to severe pain, for instance, then biting might be a reflex like reaction and in some circumstances the dog's only defense. So I do think the circumstances need to be considered. I think the owner is responsible. I also think that with proper training some dogs can be rehabilitated. So each case is individual. A lady who can't or doesn't control her Yorkies better not let them out in public!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I do think size matters simply because of the difference in physical damage.  I try to be careful with my dogs around others, but get lax when everything seems fine. I am reminded of a friend who bred Rotties.  Her beloved male attacked this lady one day causing a lot of damage.  She felt that her only recourse was putting him down and having an autopsy done. It turned out that the dog had a brain tumor that caused this sudden vicious behavior. I think if I had a dog that became vicious and I couldn't 'fix' it and I couldn't avoid his triggers, first I would try to find a new home where he wouldn't be exposed to those triggers, but if that wasn't possible, I would consider putting him down as a last resort.

[Adina P]

I think it is very complicated.   A dog with any bite history has a great chance at living a good life and not biting with the right, diligent owner.  Unfortunately such 'right' owners are few and far between and there's an overabundance of bad dog owners.  So it pretty much sucks for dogs who aren't naturally amiable and more likely to bite.  I know of a cane corso who was recently highly trained and went from a raging maniac to a relatively controlled dog.  He was a serial killer waiting to take over and a soon-to-be dead dog.  But when his owner found a real trainer who knew what she was doing she was able to get him under control.  He would likely deteroriate in another person's home but is thriving with her.  So yeah, owners are at fault for letting the vast majority of bites happen.  But what CAN you do with incompetent owners!?  The owners get away scott free and the dog is killed.   Not fair but what DO you do??

 

[Cindy M, Zachary & the Frenchies]

I think that this is really the problem - what to do with the owners. When my ex was bit - he was attacked by pits - 2 while walking our dogs. Long story short - they were hunting in the neighborhood, which incidently was full of kids playing. It took a neighbor to beat them with a rock to get them off his arm, and even then one of them reattacked before he got our dogs back in the house. The neighbors home (the dogs owners) was posted with a beware of dogs sign and there was evidence that they had tried to dig out from under the fence in the past. The dogs were put down. The owner became unavailable, and almost all of our expenses were covered by our health insurance, but we sued, because we wanted to make sure that he could not get homeowners insurance if he owned dogs. The actual money that we got was minimal after the lawyer and the insurance company took their share but it will be very hard for these folks to own dogs again.