Murph's Visit With The Behaviorist

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I know most of you are well aware of Murphy's issues with dominance.  Today we had our visit with a Behaviorist, and I feel like it was incredibly worthwhile.  Here's a summary of our key "take aways".

• I've been referring to Murphy's problems as "dominance". They really aren't....it's aggression.  He is demonstrating two distinctly different types of aggression....fear based aggression and what they used to call "dominance aggression" but now refer to as communication breakdowns. I've been so reluctant to call him aggressive....but that IS what he is and I need to face that.
• This is genetic.  After completing a 10 page questionnaire which details Muphy's full history the Doctor feels there is nothing to indicate that there was any event in his life that would have caused this.  He is "hard wired" to behave this way.  She did say that while it is not common she has seen several male Standard Poodles with almost identical behavioral issues to Murphy.  She also said that this ALD "genetic background" presents lots of potential concerns (in her opinion).  The high energy of the Lab and Poodle, the super intelligence of the Poodle along with their high energy (and dominance in some males) and all  of the recent problems with aggression in Cocker Spaniels present concerns from a genetic perspective.
• She felt that all of the work we've done with Murphy has been exactly what he needed.  I was so relieved to hear that.  She agreed with the approach we have been using for training and felt that our trainer was guiding us appropriately.  Her feeling was that without all of this work he would have bitten and it could have been a serious attack. 
• He should never again be allowed to be with our grandchildren without a muzzle.  That was so hard to hear.  Thank heavens he has not bitten one of them.....but now I know that he could.
• That brings us to the concerns about how he is behaving with our son.  It happened again this morning.  My son started to walk into the room where I was and Murph jumped up and charged at him.  Again, my son was terrified.  The Doctor felt this was really serious.  Whenever I can't be right there to supervise his interactions with my son, he needs to be either crated, gated in my room or muzzled.  When I go to bed, Murph needs to be gated in my room so that he can't run into my DS during the night.  There have been episodes when I was asleep and our son got up to use the bathroom and Murph became territorial.  Isn't this all so sad?  I'm tearing up just writing it.
• For the next two weeks DH and I can give Murphy NO affection of any kind.  Everything good needs to come from our son.  He needs to feed him, treat him, and pet him.....only him.  He needs to start with a couple easy training commands or tricks, and treat, treat, treat.  Murph needs to view him as the "fun guy"....he still needs to respect him, but also feel bonded to him.  Right now there is no bond or respect.
• We are taking Murph to run off leash now three or four days a week and also giving him his hour walks.  She said he needs those walks but he also needs 30 minutes of a good cardiac work out every day.  So on the days we don't let him run we'll do the walks and then 30 minutes on the treadmill.
• I need to take him to our vet for a full thyroid panel.  Once she rules this out we will talk about the potential for medication.  She was talking about "doggie prozac".  She does not believe this will help with his dog aggressiveness but it would probably help with what's going on with our son.  She said she wants to think more about this because of the seizure side effects in some dogs (especially Labs and Poodles).  Most dogs display seizure disorders around five years, and Murph isn't yet three. If he has this propensity, the med could trigger a seizure.  She was concerned because he did have a seizure associated with a high fever previously....of course this is different from epilepsy, but it was still a little concerning for her.  We'll talk to her in two weeks and then decide on the med issue.
• That brings us to the dog aggression.  It is only on leash which she said is indicative of a dog who is fearful.  They sometimes feel "trapped"....like they are helpless and vulnerable.  I didn't understand how a dog who was dominant would also be fearful, but she said it is not at all inconsistent. 
• You may remember that we have moved from a choke collar to a gentle leader to a prong collar and now to an e collar.  Dogs like Murph often just become desensitized to their training tool.  They basically build up a tolerance and the corrections become meaningless.  We have to be very careful of this with the e collar, because after this there's nothing left.  We will need to walk him with both a prong and the e collar, and only give him the e collar correction in a severe situation.  For regular heeling, we'll use the prong.

So this is just a "drop in the bucket" of what we learned today.  Much of it was a reinforcement of what our trainer has taught us, but there was also lots of helpful and important new information.  We were with her for over two hours and I'm amazed with how much she was able to share in that time.  We know what we have to do in the short term, and I'll talk to her again in a couple of weeks to determine where we go next.  I always thought that we were dealing with a serious situation with Murphy, but I guess I really didn't fully understand how serious until today.  We will be buying our boy a muzzle....breaks my heart, but I have to keep everyone safe.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I am glad you got lots of good information. I am so sorry to hear about the muzzle for the grandchildren and your son. But in fact they do need to be kept safe. As to the medication, I can only say from a people perspective that I have never seen anyone get seizures from being on antidepressants . The can lower the seizure threshold but it is only a very, very small number of people who are affected by this and it may well be the same for dogs. Also, I wold think if a dog had a seizure, stopping the medication would stop the seizures.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

She did say that the "seizure" side effect is rare, but it is actually more common in Poodles and Labs than the average.  Actually she said epilepsy is more common in these breeds.  The more common side effect is diarrhea which could be an issue with Murph's IBS.  I do think she's leaning toward trying the meds (even with the side effect possibilities), but she wants to get the thyroid panel results first.

[Patti Livanos]

I am so sorry to hear all of these things; I know it must be terribly hard for you.  I am sending love and prayers for you and for Murphy--that everything you are doing with him helps and for you to stay as strong and as wise as you've been to find the right people to help you help Murphy, and to do all the hard work you have been and will continue to be doing.  

[sandy b]

Murphy is so fortunate to have found you. Most people would have given up by now. Hugs to you.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

As always, all your support is amazing.  It really does help me so much to know that everyone is rooting for us.  There were a couple things I forgot in this post that may be helpful to others.  I've often wondered what's going through Murphy's mind when he has these total "meltdowns" when he's on leash and sees other dogs.  The Doctor said that he sees the dog and the dog sends off some signal that he could be a threat (I will probably never be able to "read" these signals.....they are too subtle).  Murphy gets fearful and he thinks...."this dog is a danger to me and to my pack.  I must get rid of him...I need to keep the pack safe (dominance).  So at that point he "reacts".  A confident, secure dog will see the other dog and see it differently.  First they see most other dogs as a "good thing"....not a threat.  Second, even if the other dog is acting aggressive they do not see it as their job to defend the pack.  That's where temperament comes into play.  This type of behavior usually develops between the ages of one and three (social maturity).  Rarely would it emerge after age three if it hasn't been observed before.  If I lost control of Murph during one of these meltdowns, he would likely charge the other dog barking and snarling.  If the other dog submitted that would be the end of it.  If the other dog also gave off signs of aggression Murph would likely fight.....he's trying to keep himself and his pack safe.  Our job now is to teach him how to be calm and not fearful when he sees other dogs.  We are going back to keeping a large distance between Murph & other dogs and we'll work our way back to heeling past them.  She does not believe that he's ready yet for that.  I said we've been working on it for almost two years.....she said that's just not enough time....we need to slow down.   The issue with our son is totally different.  The other thing that she said is at least for now we need to tell Murph what to do every minute of the day.....he should make no decisions for himself.  He needs to learn that he is not "empowered" to decide anything.  I'm sure I'll keep thinking of things that we learned....I should have taken notes.  Again, thanks everyone.

[F, Calla & Luca]

If you speak to her again Jane you might want to record it.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

That's a great idea, F.

[Lorraine Bromley]

I don't know much but I caught in the post that you want Murph to accept your son and stop being top dog over him. You need him to stop being so protective of you and territorial. I was wondering if continuing to have Murph sleep in your room is still giving him the idea that he is in the pack and your son who sleeps elsewhere is not and should not be. If Murph were to have his own area to sleep in so that he can be "off duty" from protecting you or his territory along with the new ideas of having your son be the one that he gets all his positive attention from may help too. Maybe that is something the behaviorist mentioned?Just an idea.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

That's really interesting.  I had never thought of that.  The problem would only be that we gate him in our room so that our son can freely move around the house at night.  I'll definitely ask about this because it really does make sense.

[Colleen, Jake & Baxter]

Hugs and prayers for you and your family.

[Jean, Rylee and Cooper]

Jane so sorry to hear all of this.  Hugs to all of you.  You are truly something and Murphy is very lucky to have you.  My best to all of you. 

[Pat and Traveler]

Oh, Jane.  I felt so bad hearing Murph would have to be muzzled around your son...I can only imagine how badly you must feel.  You pick up and carry on with such grace!  Hugs to all of you.