Heated Discussions, Puppy Mills, Loving Our Dogs, and Bad Feelings! PLEASE READ!

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

I live in Pennsylvania, which happens to be a state that has some bad laws when it comes to animals.  I have a neighbor that chains his dogs up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  You can do that in Pennsylvania as long as you provide food and shelter.  How do I know this?  Because I have called to report my neighbor a couple of times and nothing is ever done. The last time I called was because he chained up a very small dog that shouldn’t be living out in the elements. No dog should. This week, when I drove by his house, his beautiful, filthy dirty, Springer Spaniel was in the middle of the road. Fudge and Vern were going crazy in the car, but I drove by three times to see if I could get the dog to come home with me, but then the neighbor came out and got him.  I guess the dog figured with all that barking in the car, he would take his chances where he was living.  Later, I drove by to see him back on his chain. His doghouse was surrounded by mud and water from all the rain we have had, and he was stretching his chain to find a dry spot to stand.  Recently, I penned a letter to my neighbor asking him if I could help find those dogs a home or bring them a bone or walk them or something.  My other neighbor, who is one of the kindest people I know, said not to mail it, because the guy isn’t right and who knows what he would do to us or Fudge and Vern. I haven’t mailed the letter.  I don’t know what to do, because according to our laws, those dogs are being cared for, and I feel guilty because I look away when I drive by that house.

 

This week, we had a discussion on DK that got heated.  Usually, I post funny blogs and try to stay out of the fray.  I think I can count on two fingers the times I have been confrontational on DK and feel free, to correct me if I am wrong. This time I got involved. I thought about it long and hard before I posted and some have said, I hijacked the discussion because it was meant for something else.   It won’t be the first time this happened on DK and it won’t be the last. When you are standing face to face and arguing, it is easier, because you can react to body language and facial expressions.  Writing your words down gets trickier, because there is what you said in black and white, no going back, and no way to tell if you are reading more into it then you should.  It is also easier to say something in writing when you don’t have to see the hurt or anger on the face of the person standing in front of you. I don’t like fighting, although my oldest daughter and I have no problem doing it and we have had angry words, moments where I think she is the biggest idiot I know and vice versa, and phone hang-ups, but we never hang up the phone on each other without first yelling, “I love you,” and even sometimes, “I love you, but never call again,” and thirty minutes later we are back on the phone. 

 

The problem with the Internet is, once you put it out there for all to see, you are inviting people with different life experiences, different opinions, different experiences, and different hot buttons to respond.  There is no going back or calling back. That is why when people get on DK and post that they would like to breed their male dog, without knowing anything about the dog’s lineage, on a site that promotes responsible breeding by experienced professionals and spaying and neutering, sometimes it does not matter how nicely you say something, but because the response is not what the poster wants to hear, they get upset, mad, and sometimes leave DK.  This happened the other day, when someone posted that she just got a new puppy and more or less, is letting it sleep in its own pee or poop, because she needs her sleep at night.  Again, you are on a website that loves dogs, where most people make all kinds of sacrifices those first few months, and you are surprised when someone gets upset that you don’t feel like getting up at night with a puppy that can’t possibly hold its bladder or bowels for an entire night. Sure enough, someone spoke up and didn’t say, “I agree wholeheartedly. Let your dog sleep in its own filth, because you need your rest,” and that person got mad and left DK.   Sometimes, there is no way to sugarcoat the obvious.

 

This week the discussion was something different and listed a name that because I live in the same state, I just happened to recognize. Was it about Puppy mills? No, it was not, but I knew what it was and I was worried if I said nothing, someone would be out there researching and happen upon this name and open up the discussion and see adorable dogs and happy owners and think it was a great place to get a dog. What if that person got a dog from there and recommended it to another person and they got a dog and so on and so on, and because I said nothing and looked away, more money went into the pockets of people that don’t deserve to profit off of dogs.  So, I ask you, where should I have posted it on DK and would it had made a difference if I opened a new discussion? 

 

Yesterday, I saw in the news that someone in Chicago had been arrested for drop kicking a kitten between 15 to 18 feet into the air, and then signaled a “field goal” with his arms. He was laughing as they arrested him and said, “it’s just a cat,” and that they played like this all the time.  We certainly all recognize this as animal cruelty.  Then my husband came home to tell me that someone who he works with just bought a puppy at an “Amish farm’ in Lancaster, PA.  Sometimes, we don’t see this as being on the same par as drop kicking a kitten. My husband said he congratulated his co-worker because he was so thrilled and just listened while he talked about how they checked out the facility, the parents, and all the dogs were happy.  My friend bought a dog the same way and came home with bogus papers and now doubts she even has a Labradoodle.  This kind of thing happens all the time where I live.  Very nice people, looking for a dog, go in search of one, find one they can afford, visit the place, like what they see, and of course, the puppy is beyond cute, and bring the puppy home.

 

There was a time I might have done the same.  The best dog we ever had as far as temperament and training, Hershey, came from a friend of a friend, who had a Lab that accidentally got impregnated by the roving Lab in her neighborhood.  I didn’t have a clue about health testing or back yard breeders.  We could afford Hershey and our daughter wanted a dog.  Period.  Hershey lived to be thirteen, surviving on Science Diet, and no training of any kind. She never went to doggie daycare, the dog park, never pulled on a leash, got along with our cat, our rabbit, a bird, and almost every dog and person she met, and rarely was leashed when we sat in our yard. If anyone had ever told me, I should not have gotten this dog, I would have been furious.  Fudge and Vern were the first dogs I ever had that pull on a leash like two oxen pulling a wagon. Fudge reacts to almost every moving thing and Vern peed when a puppy at the groomers jumped on him.  Any dog we ever had growing up was gotten from a newspaper ad or word of mouth.  I am sure most of them were free or cheap.  No matter where these dogs came from, we loved all of them.

 

Now, I have Fudge and Vern, my wonderful heart dogs, my Doodles, and because of them, I found DoodleKisses.  When I first joined, I remember a rescue was in process for a dog named Matt.  I don’t remember all the details, but I remember how amazed I was by this community and how I rooted for Matt to find a better life.  Since I have been on this website, I have heard so many similar stories about dogs that got a second chance and some of them, not all, have been Puppy Mill dogs.  What I knew about Puppy Mills up until that point, came from TV, magazines, or newspapers, but now I was seeing individual dogs with names and faces and tragic stories and seeing that we had hero’s right here on DoodleKisses.  It was so much harder to look away.  I couldn’t turn off the TV when it got to be too much and tell myself it doesn’t happen often, that most people are kind and caring with their animals.  It was time to face the facts.

 

Last week, I did a very dumb thing. I came home to find our Cable provider’s truck in our driveway.  The guy looked legitimate; after all he had an official truck with the right logo and said he was checking out the guy who had done repairs for us the previous week.  He asked to come in the house and I let him.  I never asked for ID and didn’t get his license plate.  I stayed with him in the basement, but when he got out a camera and took a picture of nothing important that I could see, it made me uneasy.  He left, but I worried about it, until my husband got home and told him the details, fully expecting him to laugh it off, but he didn’t.  He had me call the Cable Company and report it to security.  The woman on the other line made me feel even dumber for not getting ID and I got a well-deserved lecture from several people that night.  The next day, security called to tell me it was a cable worker and he was supposed to be there.  How many times are we told to ask for ID and I know it, but I thought the guy looked nice and made a bad decision?

 

I think it is the “niceness” that gets me the most about some of these breeders, because it is how they disguise the evilness and get wonderful people to buy a dog from them and like me, with the Cable guy, we tell ourselves that “nice” people don’t do bad things.  Yet, we hear on the news all the time that some of the people that commit the worst crimes are described as being “nice” by neighbors, co-workers, friends, and family? Ted Bundy immediately comes to mind.  When you think about it like that, you have to ask yourself if you honestly think a Puppy mill breeder is going to have you come back to the areas where the real atrocities happen and let you look around?  No, they are going to show you what you want to see and answer your questions with answers they know you want to hear. This is why they stay in business, because we all know if you walked back to see dogs lying in their own filth or the filth of the dog directly above it, you would recognize this for what it really is and get the hell out of there. 

 

Are they going to tell you that when the breeding parents are used up, they will be dropped at a shelter or worse? No, because you would recognize this for what it happens to be…animal cruelty.  Are they going to tell you the parents are not health tested and at best, you might get a 30-day guarantee, if that?  They are smarter than that, and most people who have a puppy for 30 days probably won’t return it any ways and what do you think happens to that puppy if it gets returned? Are they going to admit that they are in the puppy selling business to make money, lots of it, and really don’t care about any of their dogs?  No, they won’t and they have their “nicest” people working with the public, so we buy it and go home with one of their puppies. This is how they stay in business and disguise all the ugliness.  They have to sell these dogs using deceitfulness, trickery, role-playing, and illusion; otherwise, if they did it using the truth, NO ONE would ever buy a dog from them. 

 

 

The only way we can stop this and win is to continue talking about it and getting the word out about these places.  I have been on DoodleKisses long enough to know that most of these discussions end badly, because if you start talking about how bad Puppy Mills and Pet shops are, it upsets the kind and loving people, who for good reasons in their minds and with great intentions, somehow ended up with one of these dogs.  It always ends with hurt feelings, misunderstandings, and resentfulness, and by dividing us, the people who love dogs; we get weaker against these bad breeders.  I wish I could let this go.  I wish I had said it better this week.  I wish I did not upset members that I care about and like.  It keeps going around and around in my head and I am not in the habit of hurting people, so it does not sit easily with me.

 

All I meant to say is educate yourself and others so we can put these places out of business and end the suffering of these dogs.  Maybe I didn’t post it in the right spot, but I am now. If we work together, instead of against each other, we can make a difference, because I truly believe and I am borrowing this from Oprah, “that when we know better, we do better.” This topic is going to keep coming up here because it is a dog website loaded with passionate and caring people, and I mean all of them, no matter where you got your dog. We are probably going to fight again, but hopefully we can each learn a little something from the other and get it right one of these days.  I would like to move past this and go back to playing games and writing funny blogs, but I also don’t want us to turn a blind eye to any dog that is suffering.  I don’t want to forget that behind every adorable puppy that comes from a place like this, there are mama and papa dogs that are nothing more than breeding machines until they can no longer perform. Think how much you love your dog, but no one loves these dogs or cares for them in the way we care for our own pets.  They are at the mercy of heartless monsters, through no fault of their own, and no one to speak for them, except us. Thank you, if you are still reading, for letting me say what I have not been able to stop thinking about since this all started.

[Pat and Traveler]

Well said, Laurie!  I've seen how easily these discussions can get heated and feelings can get hurt, and I've worried sometimes that a new member might get so defensive or shocked by the firestorm their supposedly innocent question stirred up that they left without getting the right message.  It's more by luck than design that I ended up with a pup bred by a good, ethical breeder.  I'm sure if there had been a pet store puppy handy with the characteristics I was looking for, I would have snapped it up in a hearbeat and inadvertently contributed my own bit to puppy mills.  I know, though, that I wouldn't have let ANY puppy spend a night in his own urine and feces, so that poster may have been beyond help.  Or--the poster might have just been looking for a reaction, though if that was the case she probably would have stayed longer and tried to stir up even more emotion.   

[Jane, Rooney & Stuart]

Laurie - I guess I missed the drama of both of these discussions but I want to tell you that just last night - well lets just say I doubt I will be invited to our friends house again for dinner.  We were at a small dinner party (7 people) when one man and I got into a heated discussion over dinner - he bought a dog at a pet store that had poorly formed front legs and he considered himself as having "rescued" the dog.  Not matter how hard I tried - I couldn't get him to understand that no decent breeder would sell a puppy to a pet store.  Grrr!  I had to stiffle a laugh when I "accidentally" spilled butter sauce all down his shirt when I helped clear some dishes (still lmao)!!  It brings tears to my eyes to read your post and all the other comments - as the mom of the sweetest doodle bug ever - Stuart, who was saved from a puppy mill!!!!

[BG and Gavin]

Thank you Laurie.  Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this site should never question your kindness, integrity and heart.  Also it must be very painful for you dealing with your neighbour's situation each and every day. My wish for you is that it somehow resolves itself in a manner that is positive for those poor dogs.

I hope EVERYONE reads this blog and responds.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

 F, now I am giving you a standing ovation:

"But on some issues there really is no way to respectfully disagree. Any one who thinks puppy mills are OK doesn't belong on DK IMHO. If people leave because of that should we care? If we can educate people to see the horrors of the puppy mills without causing them to leave, all for the good. But if we cannot then I'm glad they are gone."

You said it better than I ever could, my friend.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I got off on the subject of puppy mills there and forgot to address the issue of hurt feelings.

What I hope people will remember that when these topics come up, there are hurt feelings on both sides. Some of the people who responded to the heated discussion the other day were deeply hurt by what appeared to be a cavalier attitude toward puppy mills.

Also, the feelings of long-time members should be just as important as the feelings of newbies. Is it worse if someone who has been a member for a short time leaves the site because their feelings are hurt than it is if a long-time member leaves for the same reason?

 

[Camilla and Darwin]

Laurie, I agree with you 100% and I wish there were more people like you. The bottom line is that as humans we don't like to see unpleasant truths. When faced with something that we feel guilty about, or something we feel is too big or overwhelming to change there is often a sense of denial that takes over. I think we all need to work really hard on being more humble and open to criticism, and more aware of the suffering of those around us. More aware of the suffering we CAN'T see, the suffering that doesn't touch us directly. "Out of sight out of mind" is a common and dangerous mindset. 

I purchased Darwin from a BYB. Both parents were housepets well loved by their families, but the breeder did no health testing, and had NO idea what she was doing. The litter was in my local classifieds. The point is that I think (maybe I KNOW) I knew that I shouldn't be getting a dog from there. I was just impatient to get a dog and wanted to be able to afford one NOW, and I didn't want to have to go through the work or the interview or the waiting. Darwin is healthy up to this point, and hopefully will stay that way. But I financially contributed to someone who shouldn't be breeding dogs and I take that very seriously. I will not let something like that happen again, and I will not advise anyone to go the same route, or condone it, EVER.

As a last thought, I am going to copy and paste what I said at the end of the other discussion, just for future situations when something like this arises. And please don't think I am talking about you or anyone else in that discussion. I truly feel that all of you were very kind and civil, and I admired the way you handled it. I simply think this is a good reminder when emotions get high and we are talking about touchy subjects.

"It's not so much that I feel worried about a member's feelings. I worry that when someone gets defensive, the opportunity for learning ends. If the approach of people (not necessarily yours, I agree that you were civil) puts the ignorant party on defense, they will not learn anything. They will simply get angry and either push it out of their mind, or leave. 

I am just thinking about what would have the higher success rate here. Hopefully this is a reminder to some that being gentle (even when it deals with a sensitive issue such as this) IS the logical course of action. Because you want the person to remain open to learning about these issues, not get emotional and hurt."

[F, Calla & Luca]

You are far more patient than I am in your efforts to amuse and and in this case educate us. What a lot of words and all of them true! Thank you.

Occasionally I will attempt to warn people about dangers I see because we old timers, me being one of the oldest, know there are evil people. Such as people who will read your name, address, or phone number and use it to no good purpose. I even started a Danger Group to help disseminate known dangers to dogs. But nobody has said it better in terms of puppy mills than you did just now.

And you are right that by not speaking we may unwittingly promote the puppy mills. So some feathers may be ruffled. I too like to be non confrontational but on the rare occasion when confrontations have happened I haven't backed down or left DK. I get too much out of it in so many ways. So I spoke up and fought back and came to an understanding,  even a friendship, with those with whom I disagreed. We don't all have to agree but we do have to respect one another. But on some issues there really is no way to respectfully disagree. Any one who thinks puppy mills are OK doesn't belong on DK IMHO. If people leave because of that should we care? If we can educate people to see the horrors of the puppy mills without causing them to leave, all for the good. But if we cannot then I'm glad they are gone.

I am sorry you have to live with such a bad dog owner next door. I am sorry that there are puppy mills. But people power is persuasive. Now with petitions online  many things have been accomplished. Maybe one on change.org , or something could be a start to better laws in Pa and Ohio. We need to do what we can safely do to change the things we see that are wrong in this world.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Laurie, I am standing right beside Anna giving you that standing ovation.

Thank you for having the heart and the courage to post this blog.

Thank you for having the heart and the courage to look at the ugly pictures, to read the horrific stories, to try to do whatever you can to end the suffering of so many dogs.

Thank you for being unselfish enough to care about the dogs who are not healthy and happy, even though yours are.

Thank you for caring about my dog. Because in all that you are saying here, that's what you are doing. You are saying, I feel so terrible that Jackdoodle is suffering that I am going to stick my neck out and do whatever I can to try to keep any other dogs from suffering the way he does.  

If there were no puppy mills, there would be no need for rescue groups.

There would be nobody dumping dogs in shelters or leaving them out loose somewhere to be picked up by Animal Control.

There would be no owners dumping dogs in shelters or relinquishing them to rescue groups, because there would be a truly responsbile breeder ready and willing to take those dogs back in cases where the owners cannot keep them.

There would be nobody thoughtlessly obtaining dogs on a whim and then dumping them when things got rough, because it would be a lot harder and more expensive to get those dogs in the first place, and because responsible breeders try to make sure they are placing their dogs in homes where the owners are educated and committed to them, and can afford to do right by them.

There would be fewer people wanting and needing to get rid of their dog because of health and behavior problems, because a responsible breeder does his or her best to breed dogs without health or temperament problems, and raises the puppies in way that helps them adjust to life in a home. A dog who spends the first two months of its life in a cage with no socialization or handling is going to be a dog who nips kids, who has fear issues, who is tough to housebreak, and who is therefore much morelikely to end up being dumped.

There would be no dogs who bite people and other dogs because they were taken from their litters before they had a chance to develop bite inhibition.

There would be no owners looking to breed their intact dogs and add to the problem.

Anyone who turns a blind eye to puppy mills, anyone who tries to rationalize or make excuses for these places, anyone who contributes one penny to them, is participating in all of the above tragic situations, no matter how much they claim to love dogs.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. To me, it's that simple.

Laurie, Jackdoodle says thank you for caring about him and for speaking up on his behalf. Me too.

 

[Sherri, Sophie, Winston, & Kitty]

Hi Laurie, you are so wonderful. I know you've been feeling stressed and upset about your encounter this week, but I think in time it will blow over. You did a good thing by flagging the puppy mill situation in the discussion, as it is true that it wouldn't bode well for DK if others did a search and found this wonderful discussion about these wonderful dogs and thought DK was recommending this 'breeder'. On the other hand, I've learned through my own similar encounters that once things even start to hint at getting heated we need to step away from the computer because the more we post the deeper we dig outselves into a giant mess. I think you've expressed yourself wonderfully, and it is obvious how caring of a person you are. Thanks for sharing this blog!

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

A few years ago I came here only to be told, “Oh you are from Ohio. You are a puppymill state. You are one of the worst of the worst.  I should step up and ....blah blah blah”.  I was a bit taken back by the information I was getting thrown at me on DK.  I was in denial.

I took offense.  I browsed ( quickly ) at a few articles that were floating around  only to shut them down.  Out of sight, out of mind.  It is EXTREMELY difficult to face the facts. Somehow, over a long period of time, I've learned. But it was a long time coming.

I think the pictures are the worst and I have avoided putting them out there.  That was what made me run.  But the ones I looked at are burned in my mind.  ‘Is this your puppies Moma’, haunts me and fuels me to fight.

You mentioned shelters as where the breeding dogs end up.  Well, if they are lucky.  Most are drowned at auctions when they don't sell or they snap their necks right there.   There are pictures and videos where farmers then use them as fertilizer in the fields. Yep, a pile of dead dogs.   Ashes to ashes so to speak.  A ‘ Thank you for your time fair well ending’

I never made it through the drowning videos.

So how do we get the word out there?  I certainly do not want to dwell on it all day.  I would need a lot of Prozac.  But it should be out there. 

As a dog loving group, we also need to advocate and educate.  

I come here for the pretty pictures, the funny stories, the friendship.  But it was here I also learned many painful lessons.

I think because this is difficult to handle, we continue to post our pretty pictures and ignore the topic completely.  Actually, I would prefer to do it this way.  I often run from the truth.  For several years, none of us have discussed mills. It certainly needs to be out there, but as said, it gets  heated and painful. Honestly, how do we deal with an important topic such as this.  Ignoring, well that makes us just as bad.

Do you think a group that we could refer members to would help?