I need some guidance on using an E-collar!

[diane silver]

I'm feeling very stressed about my decision to try an E-collar with Emma.  Though she is now two , (I thought she'd outgrow it), she will still sometimes chase running children (my grandsons included), nipping at their hands and feet, and also will make a "bee line" for the mud puddle at the local dog park, with me constantly trying to have her "come" or to "leave it."  I purchased an e-collar and it's still in the packaging, since I'm feeling very torn about even trying to use it, knowing that there's so much controversy about them.  I certainly want to use it properly, use a "tone" initially, etc., etc., and I have a good friend who uses one very effectively on her prey-driven, small dog (she's offered to help me).  I'm wondering if I should hire a professional trainer to observe Emma and tell me if an E-collar is something that would be beneficial, or if I should return it, or . . . . . we're about to have our third grandchild, and obviously, I want to nip this behavior before the baby begins crawling, etc.  Any guidance from anyone would be so appreciated - I've come to you all many times before, and value your opinions.  Thanks.

[Nancie & Gracie Doodle]

Very good point Karen and I agree with you about children. My three grandsons 6, 4, & 2 are coming to visit in July. Last year the two older ones were scared of Gracie mainly because of her largeness, full of life energy and her big happy tongue that loves to lick faces. I can understand that someone just a few feet tall sees a huge goofy dog running right for them would be enough to make them scream, turn and run. If they stand their ground they get knocked over by the force of the wet lick! I made a point of working with Gracie and the boys together. The boys had to understand that poking their hands and arms at her is a tease and also screaming and running away makes her think they want her to chase them and play. The boys had never really been exposed to dogs and it took a lot of work to get them to understand. By the end of the two week visit the 6 year old (then 5) and Gracie were best buddies. He would throw her tennis ball, lead her around by the collar and lay on her. She adored him and he was no longer afraid of her. The then 3 year old accepted Gracie but ignored her and gave her wide birth. The then 1 year old was still a baby and was only overwhelmed when he was in his stroller and Gracie came up and gave him a big lick...babies taste great...all that food on their faces!!! I never would have even dreamed of using the e-collar on Gracie and yes, it is the children who need to be taught how to act and behave around a dog. It is hard when the kids are very active and wild boys (as mine are). They were not use to a lot of discipline so it took a ton of patience on my part. Now, when they return I will be interested to see if the oldest is stand offish or not. Probably in the beginning. I will probably have to start the process all over again.

Again, I only use the collar to save Gracie's life if I ever see her running into the street after a ball. When we are out without a ball she never goes in the street and she does not have the e-collar on! We can walk without a leash which sometimes we do but never in areas where there are cars or traffic only because I never want to chance it.

[diane silver]

I so appreciate all of your very thoughtful and insightful replies, but I feel I have to respond to some of the issues raised. I agree that I can "train" my grandchildren not to tease or run, etc., which I have done. Obviously, they don't live with Emma, and so when they visit, she does become excited, but we have definitely worked on her exuberance, and she's so much better with them. BUT, if we're at the park and there's a small child who is running, who hasn't been taught not to run, or if there's a bike rider, or if there's a jogger, or, or, or, I can't control who or what she will run after. So, that's my primary reason for wanting to use the e-collar, not as punishment, but as a way to reinforce her "come" and "leave it" command. There have been instances at the park when I think she's so focused on her ball in her mouth, and then she will see a little child playing/running, and she takes off and starts chasing/jumping. Believe me, I in no way want to hurt Emma, and I've already hired a professional trainer to come and work with her and me, so that it's a positive experience.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think that's a good decision. Please let us know how the training goes!

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

When I was going to training with Roo with an e-collar, the trainer made it very clear that the tone or zap was either a reinforcement or a way of interrupting Roo's unwanted behavior to do a desired behavior. It was not a punishment or a negative reenforcer. For example, Roo came to training already having had some training (by me) in heel, sit, down, and stay. Roo knew what those commands were even if he was inconsistent in obeying. He was about 8 months old. The collar was put on every day, all day and not used until about day three ( I don't remember exactly how long the collar was silent.) At night it was taken off and charged and the next morning I put it on him as he ate breakfast. After the first few days the collar was turned to tone and when I walked Roo at a heel and then stopped, he sat. As he sat he was hit with tone, if he did not sit immediately as I stopped he was still hit with tone and "Roo sit" was repeated. I was never to use the collar without a command that he knew. For example if he put his head in the garbage, I would say "Roo leave it" and hit the tone.

Truly, with Roo the tone was insufficient, and I began using the "zap" at about three or four. I tried it on my hand, with it tightly against my hand. Even as high as it would go it was not painful, but it would get your attention. I was taught that it works on the same principle as throwing a rolled up towel at the dog. It is not necessary to hit the dog with the towel( not that I could hit the dog anyway) , which would not hurt it just interrupted the dog's focus long enough for you to get a command in that would be heard. The advantage is that I could carry the remote in my pocket easier than the towel so I could be more consistent. I did not, and do not consider the e-collar used properly to be any different than a pinch collar, or choke collar. I think the chokechain collar is really difficult to use properly at least for me. The pinch collar used properly is used only like a ecollar, it lays happily and comfortably around the dog's neck unless you need to remind the dog or get his attention refocused.

I also know that it is possible to train with only treats and positive reenforcement. Tigger is practically the poster child for that method.

The end of this windy discussion is knowledge and training. Training a dog takes knowledge of dog behavior and thinking. Even with a lifetime of dog owning I still learn something from every class or trainer I go to. Then there is training, speaking for myself I do not make the time to train so consistently that I do not need training aids, nor am as practise and coordinated as a professional trainer. If I have a problem I need help with that's important I go to a trainer. For those of us who live in dense areas, whose dogs do not roam at will and return faithfully to a whistle, like Lassie did, I believe there is absolutely no substitute for a good trainer, someone who knows more about training dogs than you do.

[F, Calla & Luca]

I'm a little confused about using the tone even if he sat by himself.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Me too. The trainer explained it as like a game for the dog to beat the tone or zap. It still did not make complete sense to me. But it worked well. Neither of us think like a dog, so maybe that is why. Eventually you phase out the ecollar, by toning or zapping not every time, then less and less. Just like phasing out treating to treat trained dogs. Eventually the collar comes off and stays off. Roo wore his about a year. I could not use it to train him to not jump on people. Roo's jumping comes from excitement at meeting and greeting - anyone, new friends, old friend, whatever. My trainer felt that using even the smallest zap ( the tone was totally ineffective for anything) was inappropriate to dangerous as in some dogs, excitement can escalate into aggression with an outside stimulus. The trainer is an internationally certified trainer and tester of police and military dogs, so I figured he was right. ( His dogs are sometimes in that silly show where people have to do crazy things like running through an obstacle course with a police "take down" dog chasing them. The dogs are incredible. The contestants are a little weird)
Instead Roo has been treat trained only with jumping up to greet - he is now 2 and 3/4 and is supposed to take the CGC test in two weeks. He has about a 50/50 chance of not jumping on the tester. Tigger will pass easily if he doesn't fall asleep on the 3 minute stay ( he is just 2 and a full bother to Roo)!(freudian typo)

[F, Calla & Luca]

Being quick to obey and beating the zap makes sense but then if you do beat it it seems to me you shouldn't get zapped anyway or why bother--you can't win under that system!

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Yes exactly! But we are not dogs! Apparently they are pretty convinced they can beat the zap, and of course they eventually do as you phase it out.

[Ann]

Wow, there has been a lot of feed back on this!! I have an e collar as well. Samson is a bird dog. If he sees the smallest bird, to the big robins out in the yard, he will not listen one bit. Once, he almost went thru my bay window glass!! Also, he dragged me thru the mud once. After these incidents, and training classes, which did help a little (but once he has his eye on a bird, forget it!) I reluctantly bought an e collar. I have used one before with my other dog so I was familiar with using it. I bought the Dogtra one where you have a vibrate to it along with the other stimulus. I just have to put it on him, and I have used it occasionally to stop him from hurting himself, (by jumping thru the glass window), and he listens very well. It has saved me very much. I was so upset when he charged my glass window and luckily, it did not break!!! I don't have to "use" it much at all. Just putting it one him, he knows. They are extremely smart. Better safe than sorry.