Alpha theory vs. Positive training...HELP...so confused!

[Julie Mison]

Many of you know that my mom and I have posted on and off about our Chewie who is now 15 months.  We have used trainers that first taught us about Alpha theory/dominance to more recently complete positive reinforcement training.  Our recent trainer has given us literature disputing the dominance theory and alpha research.  However, we continue to struggle with Chewie and are very overwhelmed.  We know, in part, we need to be more consistent, however, it feels like Chewie runs the show and we always have to use treats to get him to listen.

 

Chewie does display very challenging and dominant type behaviors.  He barks at us when he wants something, paws at us, jumps at us and mouths us to try to get us to do things.  When he doesn't like something...he will bark at us.  He has had a history of resource guarding and handling issues since he was very young.  First time he growled and snapped...he was just over 8 weeks of age when we tried to pick him up when he was tired at night.  He is like this with his high value items and at times when handled.  We typically know his "triggers" but nonetheless it feels like we always have to watch out. 

 

We have two young girls....7 and 8.5 and we love Chewie very much.  He loves the kids but gets very demanding with them as well.  Interesting, he is very well behaved when he goes to day care/camp and they even use him to help temperment test the new dogs.

 

Lately, he has been more defiant...not sitting when asked (he knows basic commands) and will not come when called to get his leash on. 

 

So...we are so conflicted.  All dogs need training but for CHewie it is imperative.  We just heard about a trainer who is willing to do "Doggie Bootcamp" where he would live with her for 1 week and she trains him and then brings him back and trains us and helps us to integrate it into the home.  I have to say...we are a bit exhausted and it sounds wonderful to have someone help us get him to a more managable point and then we could maintain it.  However, this trainer believes and subscribes to the Alpha theory and pack order which we have been disuaded against.  But...when you observe Chewie..he truly does not seem to respect us and rules the house in many ways.

 

I know there are many opinions out there.  We just don't want to do anything that will make the situation worse.  How do we know which is the right way?   I guess I'm just looking for any insights or experiences any of you have had that would help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Kelly-Orchard View Labradoodles]

I would only add that whatever method you use (or a combination of both) you need to be FULLY invested in it. It sounds like you're not convinced the sole use of positive reinforcement and rewards is really working...and Chewie knows it if that's how you feel.

Why not combine the two methods? It sounds like he needs strong leadership from his pack leaders as well as the stimulation of earning rewards.

I firmly believe that you have to firmly believe in whatever method you choose. Your confidence in the method is more important than which method you use. Your dog will sense your confidence and that will help you both.

Don't give up! :)

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

This is what we ended up doing for Tara-combining the two methods. With treats only we just became "treat dispensers" and she wouldn't do even a basic command without seeing a treat in our hand first. It seemed like she regressed. Then we tried correction with no treats-this seemed to make her more aggressive. So we ended up combining and it works great. Now it is more treat than correction (reminders) but we never let her go without obeying the command (we tell her ONE time) and we never back down to her.

[Laura & Chewie]

Yes, this sounds like an ideal compromise and the trainer we spoke with said she combines various methods based on the needs of the dog. We also have come to feel like "treat dispensers". It even has become obvious that he "steals" something, looks right at us, drops it as if to say, "where's my treat?"

[Julie Mison]

makes a lot of sense! THANKS!

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

I would also like to add that when Chewie comes back from the trainer, you should get the kids on board with the training as well. Or else he will put them at the bottom of the pack. He will need consistency from everyone I would think in order to succeed. My little niece who is 6 loves being able to work with Lucy and Sophie and make them sit, stay, down, etc. when she is here. I tell her that she has to respect the rules that they have been taught. So, if he has to sit and let you go out the door 1st, they should be making him do the same thing. All part of the things kids need to learn as part of responsible pet ownership. Sounds like you guys have a good plan of attack. We will look forward to hearing how Chewie does. Good Luck.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Dear Julie, Laura, and Chewie,
I will just put my two cents in here. All dogs come with all temperments, just like people. I had a good laugh at Nancy and Ned's input about her human daughter. I have one just like that, she is 38 now and you could not ask for a better person, but it was a rough road getting there. Chewie is 15 months - never an easy dog, he is now a teen-ager. Few of us are professional dog trainers or animal behaviorists, we just all muddle along as best we can. Teen-age dogs like teen-age children can often profit from a little outside help. I know several people that have sent their dogs to "boot camp" for a week or two, including show dog breeders. It is okay to do and marvelous that you can and are willing to spend the money on Chewie.

My Tigger, who is really a very mellow fellow and has had lots of consistent training has been very full of himself for the last few months - I would not even consider asking him to come right now without a cookie in hand. He's a teenager and just a bit too big for his paws. Chewie has always been feisty, so you must certainly have your hands full..

I have the unusual hobby of "collecting" training methods. I have been to lots of one day seminars, multi-week classes and so forth. I have learned from them all. Reread all of Adina P's posts, for me she is right on. Worry less about theory and more about method. Choose your boot camp trainer carefully for method, not theory. Choose one you can follow through with because you are comfortable with it.

Be patient, consistent and proud of yourselves for hanging in there with Chewie. Believe in yourselves and in Chewie. In the end, like my daughter he will be worth it

[Leslie J]

I don't think that one theory is better or worse... it depends on the dog. I remember when my boys were little reading an article in Parenting magazine by a mom about potty training. She wrote that she had such smooth sailing potty training her daughter that she decided to write an article about it to share her wisdom with other moms. She was potty training her second daughter as she was writing the article... and had to stop writing! This daughter was not cooperating at all. She had to eat "humble pie" and soon realized there was no such thing as the perfect technique.

Each dog is also different. My son and I had great plans about training Cocoa, and we haven't done much beyond puppy kindergarten. She probably doesn't know half the commands that Chewie knows, but because she has a naturally submissive personality (at least most of the time!) it hasn't been a big deal. I would never think of "alpha" training with her, but there may be dogs who would benefit from it. I know that I would be very frustrated if my dog didn't accept me as her leader.

I use mostly positive training, but I do give Cocoa a correction when she pulls on the leash. It doesn't bother her at all... she just needs a reminder sometimes that I don't like to be pulled when we are walking. I think Adina is right that what is important when correcting you dog is that he knows what he is doing wrong and knows what he is supposed to do.

I think that you just need to find the right approach for Chewie, and that may require trying different techniques. One of my children was very challenging when he was a toddler, but he is a real sweetie now. It sounds like you have yourself a challenging pup who is going to make you work harder to get him where he is supposed to be. Don't feel bad... it's not YOU- you have a dog who is much more challenging than average and that is requiring you to invest in extra effort to train him.

To me the most important thing about having your dog trained when you are not present is that you really trust the trainer and believe in her techniques. I think the success with doggie boot camp is mixed- I know my friend who sent her dog to one was amazed how well behaved he was when he came home, but her family (including 4 kids) couldn't maintain the training and he soon slipped into his old ways.

[Laura & Chewie]

Well, this has turned into quite the thread! I will definitely be rereading it at least once or twice to make sure I absorb everything most of you had to say. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your wonderful advice, opinions and most of all your support. Many of your responses made me smile, a couple brought an emotional tear to my eye, but the feeling of friendship and caring just came oozing through my computer monitor. I started the day upset and getting my dander up (sorry ;- couldn't resist) and am now feeling so much better...I'm sure Julie will too when she is able to read all of this later.

[shelly]

So glad you're ending your day on a good note!

[Julie Mison]

Wow. Thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful responses. It has helped a lot and makes a lot of sense. Unfortuntately, we had a trainer in the beginning that did not believe in treats and did a lot of correction (not much praise, etc.) and even made us feel uncomfortable many times. It felt very punitive and the dogs did not seem happy. For instance, her dogs layed in "place" all day long and looked fairly miserable. Chewie was young (maybe 3-4 months) and after we had this experience we then swung the other way to the positive training and have been trying that ever sense....(thinking this was representative of the other). I think the main point is it does NOT have to be all or nothing and there are a variety of techniques and methods..and all trainers are not created equal. It probably doesn't help that I'm a social worker and analyzing things to death and how it might impact Chewie...etc.....

Your insights are incredibly helpful and even though the positive reinforcement made sense and felt better...it sure doesn't seem to be working. This also reminds me of when my daughter was a baby and had a terrible time sleeping through the night. I heard so much about Attachment Parenting and "building trust and parent child bonds" that I thought I would ruin all that if I did any of the "cry it out" techniques. I got SO caught up in theory and what might make it worse or cause long term harm. I had friends telling me both ways and why and there was research on both. In the end, I had to do what seemed to help both my baby and myself. Very interesting comparison now that I think about it.

Anyway...I think we have a good idea of how to move forward and the questions we will ask. Even tonight, after work, I had a really empowering and positive feeling around Chewie. I told my mom it is the way we frame it too...it is not about being the "boss" but being a "leader". They mean vey different things...in terms of not wanting to be in a power struggle with Chewie but leading the way.

I plan to review your notes again and look into some of the websites you provided. Thanks again for your support and we'll keep you posted!

Julie (and Mom and Chewie and family)

[Stella]

I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to add anything that hasn't already been said and I particularly like Adinas replies. As ever she puts everything down so well in writing, unlike me - I am about to embark on a ramble!! But I wanted to put my two cents in anyway! From what I have been reading it sounds like you are so caught up in which 'method' to go with that you are overanalysing everything! I agree that you need to chose one concept, method or whatever you want to call it, and really stick with it. The most important thing you can do is to be consistent - everyone involved in his care needs to understand the expectations that you set for him and how to follow through to ensure he meets those expectations. As he has been giving you such a hard time, I'm not sure if you even have clear expectations for him anymore!

Hartley, our first dog for both of us, is now the most fantastic dog. But, he gave us a run for our money when he was younger. Neither of us had had a dog before and he took full advantage of that! We went to obediance classes and he was the star of the class. When he became a 'teenager' he really challenged us, particularly me. Looking back now I can hardly believe we still have the same dog. He was very sociable with other dogs and other people, but very trying at home. When we went for walks, if we didn't go the way he wanted he would either throw himself on the floor and have a tantrum, or he would start jumping up at me and attacking my arms - not breaking the skin, but my arms were covered in bruises. We were so worried that we were going to end up with an aggressive dog, or that we were going to spend every day for the next 12 years battling with him. But, with hard work, persistence, and consistency we got through it and he is such a lovely dog now (he is now 2 1/2 years old).

Luckily, our obediance trainer was also a behaviourist and she really helped us out. We just kept working away at it, being consistent with our commands and expectations. Dogs, like kids need to respect you. At that time he did not respect us and we had to earn that. She told us, never give your command more than once as it is teaching them they can ignore you. You are right, Chewie is old enough that he should follow commands without treats everytime. She taught us say their name once, say the command and give the hand signal once, and follow through if they don't do it. This may even mean going back to tethering him to you or having a short leash on him in the house so that you can enforce your command, by placing him in the position you want. Also remember, rewards don't have to be treats, they can be verbal praise, a quick pat, a toy and some playtime... anything that will motivate him. We gradually reduced the use of treats to only every now and then and rarely use them now. But it does take time! You can also incorporate commands into playtime. If we are playing fetch, I'll ask for a command before throwing the ball so that training is fun!!

I'm sure bootcamp works for some dogs, and it sounds like the one you are considering has follow-up which is good. I'm sure you are coming to your wits end with Chewie and his behaviour. But, at the end of the day he will only respect you if you are the one putting the work in. He may well go away and be wonderful for the trainer, but what about when he returns home back to his comfortable environment and you, I worry he will just fall back into his old habits. Boot camp will only work if you and your family go too (!!) and follow through when you are at home again. I think you guys will need regular follow-up training sessions after bootcamp so that you can keep up the new expectations of him.

I really hope that you can find someone to help you with Chewie. Keep working at it, you will get there. Then, like us you will look back and be proud of the dog that he becomes. Because we had to work so hard with Hartley, we actually ended up bonding really closely and I am very proud of him. We now live in the country, and the other day when a deer ran across the lawn, he returned to perfect heel position when we called him rather than continue running after it. That is when I knew what an achievment we had made with him.

Ok, that is the end of my ramble!! I really wish you and your family good luck with Chewie and hope that you can find a way to work with him that works for you and you can begin to get some consistent results and some confidance in youselves and him again. Please keep us updated with how you are progressing.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Laura, Stella has reminded me of the fact that we kept Tara on a leash all the time during that difficult stage of her life (except in the crate). It really gives you an advantage. If she ignored a command and we reached for her collar she would snap at us and go into some kind of tantrum-jumping and twisting. With a leash on, we could just grab it and she could have her little tantrum and we would patiently (LOL!) wait until she was done and then resume. Also we were trying to teach her to respect the cat and if she made a dash for the cat we could just step on the leash and put a stop to it real fast!! No chasing! I used to jokingly tell friends that Tara wasn't going to be off of a leash until she was 5 years old! (I was hoping I was joking!!) I think it ended up being until she was close to a year old though...which sounds really excessive now but it was what was needed at the time and she is such a great companion now! I know Chewie will be too and I love that you have a new sense of empowerment about this!!