Titer Testing Question

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Before Tara came to live with us we decide to try to minimize her vaccine exposure by not giving her some of the more questionable vaccinations and by titer testing on the parvo/distemper. Most holistic vets recommend the puppy series (for these 2) and a one year booster for those two vaccines (or at least parvo) and then titer testing from that point on. We had planned to start with that protocol however, when it was time to do the one year booster we kind of got our wires crossed (long story) and ended up getting her titers tested. Well, to our surprise, they were very strong against these diseases. Now we have the dilemma of whether or not to get the one year booster shots. It seems pointless to have her vaccinated with the titers showing strong. (It is another long story as to why I just don't ask her vet but that isn't an option.) Has anyone else had this experience or have any insight into what to do in this situation? At this point all she has had is her puppy series. This is our first experience with titers so any info would be helpful.

 

 

I guess this should have been a discussion so I am moving it... now it may be in several spots...sorry! I'm a newbie!

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

My vet does parvo alone at 12 weeks and distemper alone at 16 weeks and recommends a titer sometime around 6 months. She uses a .5 ml dose for the puppies.
If titers are strong, then no more vaccines. Only titers every 3 years until they go down. She has many dogs that have not needed boosters in 8 years. I had one puppy record a titer of 16,000 with only the single .5ml vaccination my vet gives. Mostly the levels are around 4,000. I have one boy that is only 252, but that is also considered a good titer.
I have one boy who has no titer score for distemper. He is considered resistant and has produced puppies that will not record titers for distemper. My vet said to not revaccinate as the results would probably be the same and it would mean more vaccinations for no results. She said distemper was not dangerous for healthy adults. They would recover if they contracted it.

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Im interested as to which boy this was.... Im assuming one of your breeding boys. Cooper (Amber/Hugo) had her 1 year vaccinations, but next year we plan on getting titers tested

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Tara had one distemper/parvo at 9 weeks (we had hoped to do them separately but..another long story). That was the end of the distemper but she had 2 more parvos. One at 12 and one at 15 weeks. The titer results that we received are in quite a different format than you are describing. Ours only gives a result of either <1:5 or 1:5 or >1:5 with 1:5 or >1:5 indicating immunologic response to the vaccination. A titer of less then 1:5 indicates poor immunologic response to vaccination. Tara's were 1:5 for distemper and >1:5 for parvo. The system you describe seems to give a lot more specific information then ours. I like the sounds of it better. Have you heard of this type of result?

I have also read that at some point as dogs age the antibodies will diminish but that they are replaced by memory cells. If there is an exposure the memory cells will produce the antibodies needed to resist the disease. At this point, the titers will test low but the dog is still not in need of being revaccinated because the memory cells are now protecting them. However, there is no way to test for the memory cells that I know of. Are you familiar with this concept?

Interesting little guy who has no titers for distemper. I have not heard of that before. I guess it better distemper than parvo!

[Barb @ Gemstone Labradoodles]

I am not familiar with the 1:5 ratio. I get my results from the U of Colorado. Also Dr Jean Dodds does titer reports but hers go up to 252 I think.
I have never heard of the memory cell theory. Since Dr Dodds is doing the research on these things, it might be good to go to her site and see if she mentions it. www.itsfortheanimals.com

On another note, I have received 2 puppies in the past from different states that had their vaccinations...but the 5 way ones. I titer tested these dogs at 8 months and neither of them had immunity to parvo. Very scary and it shows the 5 way vaccines do not work. My vet says the puppies immature immune systems cannot process so many things at once, so something gets left out.

Another interesting thing I learned. My vet will not give distemper before 16 weeks as it tends to discolour their teeth. So many people have commented how super white my dogs teeth are, so now I guess I know why. My older dogs have yellower teeth and I used to do the standard vaccination protocol..

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Tara's results came from Antech Diagnostics in Mississippi. I'm unsure as to why the vet didn't use a closer lab as we are in Oregon. Perhaps cost was an issue.

I revisited Dr. Dodds site and didn't see anything specific about memory cells. It may be that since there is no way to measure them she is advocating monitoring the titers instead of relying on memory cells to be effective.

Dr. Dodds vaccine protocol was one of the reasons that I was concerned about foregoing Tara's one year booster. Dodds and my holistic vet both recommend the one year (after puppy protocol) and then titer testing from that point on. Your vet has quite a different protocol though that seems to be working so it appears there isn't any ONE method that is definite.

I was concerned about giving Tara 2 viruses at once-the thought of 5 seemed down right frightening. Especially in such a tiny puppy! Her breeder normally gives the first 4 or 5 in one before the pup is adopted. She agreed to NOT vaccinate Tara if I would agree to give the parvo/distemper at the same time in the first shot. So I "agreed" to it and felt it was still a better option.

That is interesting about the teeth being affected. I can see where it could be possible though. I had cousins who were overdosed with some antibotic as children and their teeth all turned yellow. People don't realize that drugs are affecting the WHOLE body not just the targeted area!

Well, thanks for all the information, it has been helpful. At this point I am leaning toward waiting another year and then considering rechecking titers at that time.

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Cooper (1 year 4 months old) is overdue her vet visit and Im wondering what I should do as I have no idea about vaccines.
she had .....
distemper 1st, 2nd and 3rd Puppy DAPP, (Distemper, Infectious Canine Hepititus 1 and 2, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus and Coronavirus)
Bordetella-Influenza Adenovirus Mod
Rabies

My cats (generally indoor cats) are also overdue their shots - Distemper -Rhino-Calici, Rabies and Leukemia

I guess my question is... do they need these vaccines? Can we get titers tested and how much does that cost in comparison to the vaccines

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

I see that Cooper is one of Barb's "babies" and I am hoping that Barb will answer your questions as she is most definitely more experienced and knowledgeable about vaccines and titer testing then I. This is my first experience with titers but I will share what I know or think I know! LOL!

You probably read in Barb's post above about the problem that can be created when a puppy has many vaccines given all at the same time. That they may not mount a proper immune response to one or more of the viruses. It sounds like Cooper could be at risk for that situation.

I did a lot of research about titers and vaccinations before decided to go with titers. Dr. Jean Dodds is kind of the forerunner in this field and Barb also put a link to Dr. Dodds site in one of her posts. I suggest you read over that information if you haven't already. This will help you understand the risks involved with vaccinations and ways to minimize them.

Although I feel good and confident about our decision, society in general is not in agreement with those of us who are going the titer route. Most boarding kennels, doggie daycare, obience classes, etc. require proof of vaccination and may or may not accept titer tests as sufficient proof. Also, normally the titers are tested only for parvo and distemper and the results of those tests indicate the overall immune response to viruses in general. The other diseases are normally not titered or do not have titer testing available. So you would not have evidence of high titers in any other viruses besides those two.

So part of the answer to the question about needing the vaccines is also does she HAVE to have them to do the activities that you want to do with her. Tara does not participate in any of the things I mentioned above and part of the reason is because I won't vaccinate her just because someone is demanding it. This is in Oregon and things may be different in your area.

As far as cost goes...what I did was call around to local vets asking if they did titer testing. Many did not and there was a big price range in those that did. So shopping around is important. Titer testing may or may not be more expensive in the long run than vaccinating depending on how often you would vaccinate. Some vaccinate every 3 years and some yearly. Titers are normally tested every 3 years so if you are vaccinating yearly (also depends on how many vaccines you are getting). It could add up to nearly the same cost as the 3 year titers. Consider also the long term effects on your dogs health of over-vaccinating and what that could end up costing.

I also have a cat that is mainly an indoor cat who only goes outside in our yard on a tether. We do not vaccinate her at all as her risk of exposure is extremely low and we feel the risk of the vaccines are greater.

We have had dogs react to vaccines in the past that gave us quite a scare and that is what started us questioning and researching the whole vaccine issue. We also have had dogs vaccinated for bordetella (required by our boarding kennel) who came home from the kennel sick with it anyhow. So we not only question the long term effects on the immune systems of the animals but also the actual effectiveness of the vaccine in the first place.


Here is what I would do in your situation (please do NOT consider this advice as I am not experienced enough to give advice).

1. Since you have a relationship with Barb, contact her and discuss this in more detail. Also, perhaps she can refer you to a vet in your area with experience in this area.

2. If I couldn't do that I would titer test Cooper now for distemper and parvo and see where she is with those two. Then go from there. If she is low get a booster on one or both and retest titers in a few months or a year.

3. Evaluate the exposure risk to the cats vs the vaccine risk. Are they older and have they already been repeatedly vaccinated? If so they probably have immunity to some or all of these diseases. I believe there are titer tests for Feline Distemper and Feline Leukemia so I might have them tested if I felt their risk was high enough to warrant it and I wanted to avoid vaccinations.

So there is is..for what it is worth!! Good luck and let me know what you decide to do!!

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Thanks for your reply Riki

My cats had their very first shots when I adopted them and they were spayed (that was 6 1/2 years ago). I never took them for any shots til we got the puppy as they generally wouldnt get exposed. One of my cats was feeling extremely unwell for 24 hours after her first shots (distemper-rhino-calici, and first leukemia). I really dont like the thought of her being that unwell again from a shot (though she was fine with her other shots)

Cooper does not go to boarding kennels, day care, or any of the activities you mention, though she does of course play with other dogs.

I was never totally happy with the vets we went to, they tried to get us off raw and onto their vet diets (urgh) (DH and I both work in pet nutrition!) One vet was concerned Cooper had a scar on her belly at such a young age.... til I pointed out she was an early spay DUH
But they were the only vet within walking/short bus ride distance at the time as we did not have a car. Our neighbours also recommended them. We are moving in a few weeks so ill start looking up vets in our new area and calling around.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

You're welcome, Kaytlin-and as I said-for what it is worth!

I would be concerned about further vaccinating the one kitty who had such a strong response to an earlier vaccination. Since they can't talk I try to listen to what their little bodies are telling me!

I totally understand your frustration in trying to find a decent (i.e. agrees with everything I say!! LOL!) vet who is at all knowledgeable about pet nutrition or a natural lifestyle. We are once again in search of one as ours just left town with no notice-not a good sign!! I tend to be a vet "jumper" anyhow for some reason. I think I just get so annoyed with their lack of knowledge that I can't take it anymore...so I move on...searching...

I am curious if your cats eat a raw diet? We tried for years to get Amber to be happy eating raw and she always just gagged it down after waiting as long as she could (starvation setting in) before eating it at all! Maybe it was our recipe or the supplements in it... I don't know. Finally I gave her some Wellness grain free food and she is SO happy and grateful!! I do slip some raw liver into it though and she does like that! She also gets Origen dry on the side (also grain free). I would like to get her off the processed food but she doesn't even like raw chicken or beef with NOTHING on it at all. So I am not holding out much hope.

Pet Nutrition sounds like an awesome field to be working in!!

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

The cats were adopted by a local charity who recommend raw - they ate raw very happily for 6 years. One will only eat chicken and bones, the other will eat any kind of meat. But neither will eat it if theres veg or oils added. Cats can be very picky, especially older cats.

They do however get kibble mostly now (I get it free from work). They were both on Orijen, but one cat now gets weight management/senior food from Petcurean - grain free NOW!

I have contacted an holistic vet I have always wanted to go to - but they cost twice what my vet charges though.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Yes, they are more expensive-that is for sure. But I think it is one of those cases where you get what you pay for!

And think how much lower your frustration level will be!! Maybe you can apply what you are saving in cat kibble toward the extra cost of the vet!

Seriously, though, (and you may have read this story before as I think I posted it once already) a family member of ours had a puppy who was incredibly ill with constant diarrhea. By the time she was 5 or 6 months old she was losing hair and extremely thin from malnutrition. The owner had spent hundreds of dollars trying to find the cause of this problem using conventional vets. Finally, after much persuasion, she took the puppy to a holistic vet who diagnosed vaccinosis as the issue. The puppy was detoxified and has recovered. I am not sure where the story would have gone if she had continued with the conventional veterinary science.

Something to think about...

And what good kitties you have! :)

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Below is the response from my regular vet. They are charging $27 for blood collection, $60 for distemper/parvo titers and $255 for rabies titer, along with $55 for the exam

Kaytlin,

We do recommend an annual exam and vaccinations (though not always yearly) for all pets as they age so much quicker compared to people and it's always better to catch issues sooner.

Vaccinations:

It is recommended that Cooper have an annual bordetella vaccine if he is around other dogs. First rabies vaccines are good for one year and subsequent ones are good for 3 years. In regard to his distemper combo vaccine, we recommend another 1 year vaccine and then he would only needed to be vaccinated every 3 years for the distemper combination afterwards.

In terms of the cats, as they are indoor cats therefore only need to be vaccinated for the distemper combination every 3 years. Leukemia vaccines are not necessary if they are indoor only. The necessity of a rabies vaccine can be discussed with the veterinarian but in general, we recommend one every 3 years.

Titres can also be done and I included their cost on the attached estimate. Please note that we require an exam when doing either vaccinations or titres.