Interesting Facts I learnt at the Vet yesterday

[Chelsea and Bailey]

So I could post this in the food group but thought it might reach more people if used in the general section.  I was at the vet yesterday with Bailey (for her urinary problems, AGAIN) and the vet was kind of stumped and suggested to try to change her food.  She has what are called struvite crystals in her urine, which if left untreated can cause infection, or in her case infection could have caused the crystals. Anyways thats a whole other topic. So when she said to change food (Bailey is on TOTW) I told her that I had done lots of research on what is good, staying away from corn, soy, grain free, etc.  And here is what the vet told me:

-grain free is something that has no backup scientific research behind it and does not mean that it is better

-corn is a HUGE misconception, she said to make sure it says whole corn, same with rice, make sure it says whole wheat rice.

-Byproducts- says that in fact some byproducts can actually be good

-protein- there are no regulations on how to handle the protein.  She says often they put small amounts of protein in the food and inject it with water to make it bulk up and heavier, which they are absolutely allowed to do

-foods stated homeopathic- completely unregulated and could have anything in them, so dont buy into it!

-She also stated that just because it says chicken on what we think is a good quality bag of food actually may still be the intestines and organs.

-The #1 thing she just wanted me to know was that all pet foods are unregulated and what might be in one bag of food with the same company may not be whats in another, which is why some people are baffled when they stay on the same food but all of a sudden their pet has allergies with a new bag of food.

 

Now some of you may think that she was just trying to sell her food at the vet, but she was completely non-judgemental and just wanted to let me know what was out there.  She stated she worked at a pet store before becoming a vet and knew what they told the employee's. She gave me two brands that she has followed and knows are regulated with the exact same ingredients in each bag and also followed the health results in pets, and thought I should try those, and yes one was at her store, but one was also just a normal pet store brand.  I thought I would just share this with you all and see if anyone has any input.  Being trained in medicine and research myself I know not to just read an article off the internet and believe it unless it has been peer reviewed and research tested, but I have to say I jumped right on the band wagon with all this grain free marketing going around without finding any REAL research on it.  So im off to try and search and see if I can find anything... I'll post it here if I do find!

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Good point Nancy...

 

I know it is overwhelming Chelsea, but once you get involved in some of our conversations, I think it will all come together.  I have seen first hand how a healthy diet for my dogs can help them so very much! 

 

I hope we are not bombarding you with the info.....just trying to help you make an informed decision :)

[Chelsea and Bailey]

Ohh My... talk about confused. First of all I get Bailey off of Purina puppy and change her to TOTW because of all the "benefits" I researched, and now started to switch her to Hill because of what a professional told me... On top of it I have a puppy with chronic crystals in her urine which could lead to a whooooollle other wack of problems.... I have to say I am very very confused. I honestly just want a food that has benefits for urinary health, any suggestions? My vet stated Hills has researched and has been proven to have some urinary health benefits, she also said others could to, but thats what she knows...

 

I do the research, but one thing contradicts another. Hmm.. Thanks for the links, i'll keep an eye out

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Unfortunately, vets do not know much about nutrition, but really we dont expect our doctors to know much either - we would go to a nutritionist for advice on food.

 

i work in the pet industry, and while i am far from knowing it all, i do know quite a bit about pet food. I have been to many training seminars, some from the owners of the company I work for, some from the actual pet food brands.

 

I once had a 2 hour seminar on how wonderful corn is. What we were told had scientific backing - that corn DOES have nutritional value..... however, it is my belief that dogs cannot digest corn (we cant digest corn and we have a much larger/longer digestion tract that cats and dogs do). Also, corn is an ingredient many  dogs and cats have allergies or sensitivites to. It is just a filler in my opinion. Its not necessarily BAD unless a dog has an allergy to it, but it certainly isnt GOOD in my opinion.

 

Brands such as Royal Canin, Science Diet, Technical, Medical etc are full of fillers, meaning the dog has to eat a lot more per serving. (with Royal Canin my dog who is almost 60lbs would need to eat 6 cups.... with Orijen she eats 2 cups a day). This would pose a problem as Cooper doesnt like to eat lots - she is treat motivated but is not too excited about kibble. Large amounts of food also concerns me regarding bloat and the fillers slows digestion. The meat in these foods may be of ok quality, but the high price of the food does not reflect the mediocre quality.

 

Foods such as medical does have proven results..... however, those same results can be got from feeding a different brand (such as Natural Balance for allergies) which will be better in the long term for your dog as a whole (not just the specific health issue its having) whilst being MUCH CHEAPER. Brands such as medical is full of pre-digested ingredients (highly processed) which is why it seems to work (short term at least).

 

check out http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ for unbiased information on ingredients and how to read ingredients.

 

Think about what a dog would eat in the wild, and try to mimic that in what you feed.

 

As for grains..... whole grains are not necessarily bad - brown rice, quinoa, oatmeal  for example are pretty easily digested, and can be good  for some dogs. Personally I do not feed grains in my kibbles, but some treats I give do have some grains in it.  Some dogs do better with grain, some do better without.

[Adina P]

Sure we can digest corn.  If we couldn't then people with diabetes could eat ALL the corn they wanted and their blood sugar wouldn't be affected.  But we, and dogs, do get starch/carbs from corn thus it IS digested (though not ALL of it because) otherwise a high corn diet would lead to weight loss.

Personally there is nutrition: adequate vitamins and minerals, calories and fat and carbs and protein -- and there is food safety -- and there is optimal quality of ingredients for health.  These are separate matters and it seems most common dog foods are fine in the 'nutrition facts' aspect because they have appropriate fats, carbs, protein totals and vitamins/minerals as required.  The issue, as I see it anyway, that differentiates between Wal Mart offerings and what dog 'foodies' recommend is about possible safety issues with the manufacturing process/company and/or quality of ingredients for overall health.  It is these last two points that it seems we need more research on.  A lot of people compare the Wal Mart brands to 'McDonald's' food.  I think it's more like a tube feeding product...those aseptic bottles of tan formula fed to patients via a tube.  Nutritionally 'complete' (just like baby formula) but not truly comparable to real food that people eat.  Now how closely this matches the 'bad' vs. 'good' kibble comparison I'm not sure.  They are both kibble and not a dog eating in the wild.  Then again if my dog were left to fend for himself 'in the wild' of my town he'd probably eat lots of junk.  There is still a lot that needs to be researched. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Working in a pet food store doesn't make anyone an expert on pet nutrition; who is providing the information to the employees? The salesmen who are selling the foods they're telling you about.

And as shocking as this may seem to some people, being a veterinarian doesn't make you an expert on pet nutrition either. The only education vets receive on animal nutrition is provided by Hills and Purina. There is now a veterinary specialty in nutrition that requires 3 years post-DVM study...that's the kind of vet whose advice on nutrition I would take, and none other. Wait- I take that back- I listen to Jack's immunolgy specialist about nutrition- and she doesn't recommend or sell Hill's or any "Big Dog Food" products. She recommends Orijen for those who don't want to cook, and home-cooking for those who will do it.

A general practice vet is parroting the information he or she gets from the Hill's salesman. And those "studies" showing "proven results" are financed and conducted by Hill's. When the vet can show you a double-blind, independent study, I'll be interested to see it and will consider the results. Until then, I disagree with almost everything your vet told you, and I have had as much if not lots more formal education on the subject than she has, provided by independent sources, not by Hill's.

The above information about the lack of nutritional education in veterinary schools as well as the source of that education has been stated in print by Marion Nestle, PhD, the foremost recognized authority on nutrition for humans and the author of several books on pet nutrition, including a detailed analysis of the 2007 recalls.

Your vet is correct in that "homeopathic" means nothing when it comes to dog food.   

She is also correct about rice.

She is incorrect about everything else she told you; things like foods being unregulated and differing from bag to bag depends on what food you are talking about. If you're talking about Beneful, she's right. If you're talkinhg about Orijen, she's wrong. In fact, I would not be surprised if she is unfamiliar with some of the Canadian brands.

Consider this statement:

"but all of a sudden their pet has allergies with a new bag of food."

If you read the most basic information about food allergies on any veterinary website on the world wide web, it will take you about three minutes to come across the fact that food allergies do not develop "all of a sudden". It is physiologically impossible for the immune system to have an allergic response to anything the first time it is exposed to it. So if your vet actually said this, it shows you that she doesn't understand food allergies or pet nutrition. Which is not to criticize your vet. She is no different than most other general practice vets; she may be a terrific vet, but she is not a nutrition specialist, anymore than your primnary care physician is a nutrition specialist. 

[Rory]

These discussions always remind me of when I was a child. My best friend, whose father was a pediatrician, basically survived on a diet of fruit loops and mac and cheese. I, on the other hand, was force-fed broccoli, and surgary cereals were banned in my house. One diet was clearly better than the other, but we both ended up being perfectly healthy adults. I am not suggesting you feed your dog (or child, for that matter) garbage, but plenty of dogs have lived long, healthy lived on Hill/Science Diet products. They are certainly not my top choice brands (they are not even on my list) but I also don't feed one of the recommended foods. I feed EVO, despite the recent sale of the company, because it is the only food my dog will actually eat.

 

I guess my point is, do your own research, listen to all the advice you can, but at the end of the day, you have to choose what food you believe is best for you and your dog. If that means following the advice of a vet professional, or a holistic practitioner, or the many knowledgeable individuals on this board - you really have to do what you are comfortable with. I think the main concern (for me, at least) is the sourcing of the products and the potential for contamination or recalls. Corn won't kill your dog, nor will (gasp!) white rice, but poor sources of those ingredients might. Good luck finding a food that is the best choice for your dog!

 

 

[Denise & Hunter!!!]

VERY well said!!  I think my parents must have been in cahoot's with your parents because I swear when I moved out at 19 the first box of cereal I bought was Lucky Charms because I was NEVER allowed to have it! LOL  In the end I couldn't agree with what you have said more :-)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"Corn won't kill your dog, nor will (gasp!) white rice, but poor sources of those ingredients might."

This is a very important statement, and absolutely true. The ingredients in Hill's, Purina, Nutro, Iams, and everything you can buy at Walmart or the grocery store contain ingredients purchased through food brokers from third parties in third-world countries. The melamine that killed thousands of dogs and cats in 2007 was substituted for rice and wheat gluten by companies in China, and the makers of the foods here in the U.S. had no way of knowing that; they had hired food brokers to purchase the ingredients and the food brokers took bids for the cheapest sources of the grains. So even if a study did show that corn (or whatever) is okay for dogs, that doesn't cover this possibility. And Hill's imports their ingredients.

[Adina P]

I think this is an important point too.  That's why I keep saying it's about more than just simple nutrition (calories, protein, fat, and carb content).  Even a perfect nutrition profile (calories, protein, fat, carb content) doesn't make it good if there are questionable ingredients or questionable ingredient sources.  Rice from China isn't less nutritious...but it might mean contaminants or other such concerns.  It also might be just fine.  But there's no way for manufacturers to really know what they are getting.

[Leslie J]

Thanks for opening up an interesting discussion Chelsea.  I do think that there is one major difference between humans eating junk food and feeding low quality food to our dogs.  We consume a greater variety of foods and if there is a problem ingredient in our food it is usually only consumed as a portion of a wider range of foods.  Most dogs eat the same brand of food day in and day out, which means that if there is an unhealthy ingredient it is much more likely to do harm. 

 

I don't think it is a coincidence that the two consumers who were most impacted by tainted Chinese ingredients were those who didn't eat a wide selection of food - dogs and babies (many babies in China suffered kidney damage from the tainted baby formula).  I wouldn't be surprised if there was a much broader range of food from China that has tainted  ingredients- they probably weren't consumed in quantities large enough to cause obvious problems.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Very good point.

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Hi Chelsea! Just posted something on the food group about this for you but thought I would add my 2C or lack of it here too directly in regards to your post about your vet's comments ~

　

-grain free is something that has no backup scientific research behind it and does not mean that it is better

~ I think that there are probably many things that may not have empirical evidence but we know perhaps by trial and error for both our dogs and ourselves are better options. Sometimes there are far too many variables for a controlled study to even be possible. Also as you are aware some grains are better options than others, it doesn't neccessarily mean they are bad ~ and this is unique to the individual too. Many of us have discovered that our dogs do better on grain free, they were not part of research but we as their owners may see evidence of this perhaps in their weight, stools, coat condition, energy, etc... There are also many dogs who seem to do well on food with grain. In the end combined with the labratory results that reflect a move toward improvement or not and your observations you will determine what works best.

-corn is a HUGE misconception, she said to make sure it says whole corn, same with rice, make sure it says whole wheat rice.

~ first let me say that there are some here that know me from the beginning on DK and the foodgroup and they are NOT going to believe that I am saying this but I do think there may be some distortion about corn and certainly one can obtain nutritional value from it. I do have to clarify that I would consider the processing of the ingredient, quality, etc... While I might eat corn or use corn flour I would not be as inclined to eat some of the overly processsed, sugar laden corn cereals made to seem so appealing to us. In the past I personally have not eaten so many corn products but since I have been diagnosed with celiac disease corn and rice suddenly look like really good options for me and they are the bulk of the available substitutions on the market. With that said, I personally do not choose to feed my dogs corn and I think that many that promote it so vigorously may benefit from education that is derived from a broader source than those who manufacture pet food with it and provide teaching, scholarships, commision and other funding to vets.

-Byproducts- says that in fact some byproducts can actually be good

~ I think the bigger concern with byproducts is non specified byproducts. Virtually everything is a 'byproduct', but we should know what it is a byproduct of.

-protein- there are no regulations on how to handle the protein. She says often they put small amounts of protein in the food and inject it with water to make it bulk up and heavier, which they are absolutely allowed to do

~ I think this really is intended to refer to how the ingredients are listed and in what order. Ingredients like whole chicken for example, can put it first because of the weight (which is heavier because of moisture in its original state) even though the next 3rd ingredient down might be chicken meal which frequently is more dense in protein and nutrition.

-foods stated homeopathic- completely unregulated and could have anything in them, so dont buy into it!

~ While holistic, which I believe you are referring to, may be unregulated, 'organic' is and there are some pretty tight standards in order to labeled as such.

-The #1 thing she just wanted me to know was that all pet foods are unregulated and what might be in one bag of food with the same company may not be whats in another, which is why some people are baffled when they stay on the same food but all of a sudden their pet has allergies with a new bag of food.

~ I truly believe there will come a time when pet food is regulated properly, but not by government, by the informed consumer who will make appropriate choices. When people stop buying into garbage and the bottom line is affected perhaps then our voices will be heard. There is more about what you spoke of regarding the new bag of food thing though, in the U.S. a manufacturer may change ingredients with no indication in the labeling for up to 6 months, so while it all appears to be the same it may not be and the unsuspecting consumer may never associate the food with an ailment and continue feeding it perhaps causing further decline if it is related to the food. Additionally 'regulated' is a loose term, of course it is regulated (not well but it is regulated), they cannot place an ingredient on the label if it is not in it and they must put an ingredient on the label if it is in it ~ the looseness comes in 'the manufacturer did not add it, an ingredient was obtained by a 3rd party and they may have used it so it does not have to be included (like ethoxyquin)' or another trend would be the switch to an open ended ingredient for example 'ocean fish meal' rather than a specific named fish which automatically covers them for whatever fish meal they happen to purchase on the commodities market as long as it came from the ocean meaning as you stated a lack of consistency. Last I do have to disagree with her statement about the allergies, I am encouraged that some docs are starting to come around in their thinking that health conditions may be related to food or influenced by it but very seldom is it truly an allergy AND further allergies develop from that which one has previously been exposed to not from something we have never had.

　

You are doing the right thing to gather as much information as you can in order to move forward, unfortunately there is an abundance of good and bad information. In my own opinion good results do equate to good choice regardless of whether there is information that backs it up, after all everything that is proven started as a hunch and information gathering. Of course it also needs to be said that sometimes we think we have good results only to discover later it may have been accompanied by some not so good results so I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to be observant and always keep taking information in since things do change. It can be overwhelming, try to step back and take a deep breath and never, ever rely on a single source for your information be it the vet, a website, magazine, etc... I am sure you will benefit a great deal by hanging around the food group.