Vet is thinking "idiopathic epilepsy"

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

About 3 weeks ago, I noticed Finn sleeping and dreaming. His legs were making little running movements and he was making those little sounds dogs make.  So cute. Then the movement in his legs became more spastic and his head began to jerk up off the bed.  It lasted about 20 seconds.  I called to him, he woke up, and then went back to sleep.  I was concerned.

A week later at bedtime, Finn wouldn't settle.  He was anxious, panting, and talking in that growl-like voice...unusual for him.  I took him outside. Still the same when we came back in. He started to lick himself in the groin area and suddenly legs were flying in all directions. He was awake. I could feel the muscle spasms in his hind legs.  It lasted about 30 seconds.  Unfortunately I didn't have a camera and wouldn't have thought to use it if I did, I was so scared at his thrashing around.  After the episode subsided, FInn didn't settle.  He walked hunched over in a circle looking miserable and then went back to licking his groin area.  He finally went to sleep, but I didn't.  I wondered if I should take him to the trauma center but he was asleep.  Next morning we went to the vet.

I thought he might have a ureter or bladder infection but the vet said no.  Maybe he was in pain (?) His blood tests were normal. I asked for a thyroid test and they also tested his blood sugar levels. All normal.  The vet said she suspected epilepsy even though the seizure was atypical.  Can anyone shed any light on this?  Right now I'm watching him closely and keeping a diary.  The vet doesn't want to medicate him yet but it sounds like she's leaning in that direction.  Should I consult a neurologist?

Otherwise he's fine, eating, playing, running. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

UPDATE:

It's been 3 weeks and there hasn't been another "episode."  Fingers crossed.  My primary vet was out of town when this happened, so he asked me to bring Finn in so he could see him.  He's very good and he did a whole set of skeletal exercises and a number of neurological exercises. All ok.  He said no medication because we don't even know if it was a seizure but keep the cell phone camera close. Just as I suspected, Finn did have an infection in his genital area so he's now on antibiotics.  I'm hoping there's not another one but if there is, it's on to the neurologist.  I just don't want to put him through sedation, MRIs and a spinal tap if this was an isolated event. Dr. Drew did mention to me that in some dogs the nutraceutical Taurine has been shown to raise the seizure threshold.  This is strictly anecdotal -- he stressed there has been no solid research -- but he has seen it work in several of his patients.  For now things are quiet and we're happy about that.

[LucyR]

Where do you live, Cheryl?  Do you have a vet school nearby?  I would ask for a consult there.  Also keep a camera handy in case it happens again.  A video is so helpful in making a diagnosis. Hopefully this won't happen again.  However if it is epilepsy, it is well-controlled by medication.  I had a toy poodle at one time with epilepsy and as long as he took meds he was fine!

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

I'm about 30 miles from Philadelphia so University of Pennsylvania is a possibility.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I am a big fan of veterinary specialists for anything that might involve an ongoing illness or condition that might require long-term medications, and for which the general practice vet does not have a clear answer. While JD has not yet needed a neurologist, he does have a dermatologist, an orthopedic doctor, and an internal medicine specialist, and in each case, I would have saved a lot of time, money and worry if I had consulted with the specialist sooner instead of going back to the regular vet for tests, etc. In several instances, tests had to be rerun anyway. And most importantly, JD would have gotten relief from his various conditions sooner.

 The main difference between a specialist and even the best general practice vet is that the GP sees a fraction of the number of dogs with a particular condition that a specialist does, so a specialist can recognize certain atypical symptoms more easily because he/she is more likely to have seen them before, and since the specialist's focus is in that particular area of medicine, they are usually much more aware of the newest and best diagnostic and treatment options. I really don;t think you can lose by scheduling a consultation with a specialist, and I would certainly do that if you get to the point that the GP vet wants to start meds.

I sure hope you can get to the bottom of whatever is going on with Finn, and that it turns out to be something easily handled. I know how worried you must be. :-)

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Thanks Karen.  This is the push I needed.

It was almost a year ago that Finn was diagnosed with mild HD and he's done really well with the Dasequin and his feeding and exercise routine. I don't think he's had Rimadyl for at least 10 months.  And he still plays rough and tumble and none of his playmates can catch him at "chase." But this is different.  

Only 2 things I can isolate.  The vet was out of Interceptor for Heartworm and gave him Heartguard (with ivermectin).  But it was at least a couple days after I gave him the dose that this first showed up. And two, he hasn't gotten as much exercise as he's used to recently.      

I hope we can get to the bottom of it too. Keeping the camera close.

[Mary]

Hi Cheryl,

 I have a 5 y/o chocolate mini labradoodle who is a seizure dog. She started at 7 months, and our vet sent us to a neurologist at Red Bank, NJ to get an official diagnosis- idiopatic epilepsy. She had every test in the book and a brain MRI.   We have her on medication. It took me some time till I could video her first episode, but I did get one and took it to the vet wo finally seen it. Also took to the specialist in NJ. It really helps if you could keep a viedo camera or your cell phone close and video the episode, because of course, they won't have one by the time you get them to the vet.

  I would watch him up and if he keeps doing it ask your vet to refer you to a neurologist. I live in central PA and went all the way to NJ- it was worth it.

       Mary

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Mary, do you mind my asking who was the neurologist in Red Bank?

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Mary I hope your girl is doing well.

[Ellen]

I agree with others that you should consider taking him to a neurologist. In the meantime, you could check out You Tube, which has several videos of dog seizures.   You could see whether any are similar to Finn's behavior, but note that there are different types of seizures and different levels of intensity - http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/FAQ.html.   From your description, it sounds like Finn had a grand mal seizure.  When Riley has a GM seizure, he bares his teeth and starts paddling his legs; this lasts a little more than a minute. 

 

Some dogs know in advance when they are about seizure.  We have no advance warning with Riley.  He'll be running around and then fall over and start seizing.  As the neurologist will tell you, idiopathic epilepsy basically means the cause for the seizure is unknown.  There may be other causes for the seizures ( http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-seizure-disorders), but to rule them out, you have to conduct a battery of tests, which can get expensive.  Like Mary, Riley underwent a lot of tests, including a spinal tap and MRI. 

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Ellen, thank you for the information.  I'm sorry to hear that your Riley goes through this. I hope he lives a long happy life in spite of it.

[Dawn Ross]

My vet said idiopathic epilepsy is just a way of saying they don't know what caused the seizure. Pierson had one in January of this year and just had another one this morning. The vet determined no known cause triggered the seizure and diagnosed Pierson has having idiopathic epilepsy. Other than a blood test, my vet didn't recommend any other tests, medications, or treatments. He said one short seizure ever few months doesn't justify these things. He said drugs can do more harm than good sometimes and should only be used in extreme cases. I was given a list of things to be careful of to make sure the seizures were not caused by anything environmental.

I have a friend who has epilepsy and she recently learned that gluten can trigger her seizures. I don't know if the same would apply to dogs or not.

[Cheryl and Finnegan]

Thanks Dawn, that's my understanding too.  My primary vet is in agreement with yours -- and I would never put Finn on any type of drugs without a complete neurological work-up which I would only do if he had frequent or cluster seizures.  He does tend to have muscle tremors sometimes when he sleeps which can be a bit disconcerting  but if I put my hand on him, they stop, and I can wake him easily - but no more signs of what we experienced in February.