The continuing saga of Noodles and Bootes!

[Lisa & Greg]

Hello all and happy New Year to everyone!

As many of you know, I welcomed two goldendoodle puppies into my home over the summer. They are two gorgeous sisters, Noodles (blonde) and Bootes (brown-black with grey accents). They are now 7 months old.

We were all set to give one of the puppies up in August because we feared they weren't getting along with each other - biting, growling, fighting, etc. We were scheduled to bring Noodles back to the breeder at the beginning of September when someone contacted us about taking her, but that fell through.

We still have both dogs. We couldn't wait for that feeling of love and warmth we've had with other dogs in the past -- that feeling many of you talk about having with your dogs -- but it's just never come.

Noodles is the needy one - very high maintenance. She barks at us as if she wants something, but sometimes nothing we do satisfies her. She also jumps up on us and sometimes snaps her teeth/jaws at us. If she was smaller, that behavior might be manageable, but she's tall and very powerful.

Bootes is smaller and all over the place. She is the more insecure one and over-compensates by barking, running all over, and antagonizing Noodles. She also (sometimes, not often) "nervous pees."

I've often wondered if having the two is better or worse than having just one of them. Together, they occupy each other - although at times it's to the exclusion of us; they don't listen well to us when they're focusing on and tussling with each other. Now if we ever separate them, they go nuts without the other.

I keep reminding myself that they are only 7 months old, but it has been a very difficult 7 months. I work from home (public relations) and have several client calls every day. My last dog Ruby Blue, a Keeshond, would lay at my feet all day while I worked. Now every day I am stressed not knowing how I will conduct business on the phone not to mention how I will concentrate and devote time to my work.

I know I was naive thinking we'd have a similar experience with these dogs that we had with Ruby. I am completely to blame for following my heart vs. using my head when it came to getting two dogs; it's not the puppies' fault.

I have spoken with others who say they're experienced marked changes in behavior when their goldendoodles turn 9 months to a year old. I met a women over the summer who said she bought a 9-month-old puppy from a family who were at their wits' end. The family was crying they were so heartbroken. She said the dog was an absolute terror for the first few weeks but then calmed down and became the most wonderful dog ever. Who knows? Maybe it's us, not the dogs!

I've also heard spaying helps in some cases. Both our puppies were spayed on 12/26, so it's too early to tell if that will help at all.

We contracted with a trainer (Bark Busters) but the trainer came here once and I was very unhappy with his method (i.e. negative reinforcement), so I am planning to contact the company to express my concern. There is another trainer in my area who my vet recommended, so perhaps we'll try her.

I am also considering doggie daycare to see if getting them out and socialized will help.

For more background, in addition to the fact that I work from home, my husband works long hours outside the home (hmm, longer ever since we got the puppies!) and we have two daughters - one is in college full-time and the other just graduated college in May and will start a job this week. They help a great deal with the dogs now but that will change dramatically once the younger one returns to classes in Feb. and the older one starts working.

I keep having the nagging feeling that we are in way over our heads. Should we admit we can't handle these dogs and give them up? Are they just not a fit for our family and our lifestyle? I'll be 51 this month and I'm not sure I'll be able to do this for the next 12 or so years. We wanted dogs to bring joy to our lives but instead, we are all suffering so much trying to live with these two rascals.

We've taken such wonderful care of both dogs and given them love despite it all. We also have trained them -- they were housebroken within a few weeks and are so smart. They understand many commands.

We so want to hold them and cuddle them but they'll have none of it, which makes me wonder if they aren't feeling any love for us either!

Feeling very conflicted, stressed out and guilt-ridden. Any advice and words of wisdom as always would be appreciated. Could it be their food?? We feed them Blue Buffalo (regular puppy type, not the "wild" type). I'm open to any thoughts.

p.s. I know many of you probably think I'm an idiot for getting two puppies, and believe me, I feel like one right now. I've had dogs all my life and never experienced anything like this before so it may totally be the two-dog scenario that's the issue - especially because they're litter mates. I'm just not sure if or when I should surrender or if I should keep trying...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I can't give you any advice on what to do at this point, but I can tell you that most of the problem is due to the fact that you bought littermates. "Littermate syndrome" is well-known, and we have had many discussions here about it. Basically, the dogs bond to each other and not to the humans in their families. Their personalites also do not develop normally as they would if they had gone to separate homes. many reputable purebred breeders will not sell littermates to the same home because of this, and I wish doodle breeders wouldn't either. You should look for a trainer who has experience with littermates. 

Some information on Littermate Syndrome: http://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/littermate-syndrome/

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

http://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com/2013/07/18/littermate-syndr...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

One more. I couldn't find this article earlier, and it has the most helpful information, IMO:

http://buddyschance.typepad.com/positive_dog_training_blo/2007/04/a...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh, and their food has nothing to do with any of this. That much I can tell you with complete certainty. :)

[Adina P]

Some concerted work in obedience with even just one of your dogs could make a huge difference. But first you would have to find a great trainer. There is nothing wrong with corrections in dog training -- that is different than "negative reinforcement." Negative reinforcement actually refers to taking a bad thing away (negative) in order to influence the dog to repeat a behavior (reinforcement). What you are thinking of is positive (doing something to the dog) punishment (get the dog to stop a behavior).

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I cant possibly know what you are going through, but what I read is...

That your dogs sound like everyone' s puppies.   They bark, they jump, they puppy bite, they play and rough house with growls and snarls all day long.  They are now teenage puppies and they are trying.

You sound like every puppy owner. Your tired, you want a well-behaved cuddly, cute dog, you want perfection.  You want that dog companionship you hear we all love.  You dont have time to exercise them enough ( really they need more exercise IMO)

Well, your dogs, at least to me, sound like puppies.

My dog, now five, finally cuddles once in awhile. He sits with me on the couch.  He is kind of trained except when he acts like a dog sometimes.

I put a lot of work into getting him to behave, to train, to cuddle, to be my companion. 

Do you want to put more work into your dogs?   I think what you are going through is normal and it's work. 

Adina is correct. Get a good trainer.  Take each dog, 15 minutes per day, alone, and work with them.   Corrections are training but you need a trainer to guide you.

Do you want to hire another trainer?

I think all dogs at seven months should be in constant training

[Lisa & Greg]

Thanks for your insights and points of view. Very wise words for the most part. Karen, I agree it's likely the litter mate syndrome, which I had never heard of and didn't have the sense to research before we brought these two home. Thanks for the articles.

Joanne, it is work, you're right. As I've said, I've never had to work like this with any of my dogs. It's new to me, so perhaps it's the type of dog or the litter mate syndrome. I just find it so sad anyone would have to wait years to cuddle with their dog. But if that's what you're used to, maybe it seems like the norm to you. I also can't imagine having a dog who only acts like a dog sometimes ;-) I love dogs and want my dogs to act like dogs. I don't want and never expect "perfection" from my dogs so that's not the issue for me (although we won't let the dogs on the furniture).

If you read my post closely you'll see I said I am planning to contact another trainer. By negative reinforcement, I meant scaring the dogs into submission by yelling at them, spraying water in their faces and throwing metal-filled bags at them to the point they cower in the corner and urinate. Sorry if I'm not using the correct terminology. But I won't subject any animal to that. Instead I believe in constant correction and rewards when they behave well, and lots of love always.

We spend more than 15 minutes per day with each dog separately. I also take the dogs for walks each day and have taught them to stop at the curb before crossing the street. I run with them too. They also have a big fenced-in backyard and some days (when it's not frigid out or they're not recovering from spay surgery as they are now) they run outside for hours. (Another bonus of having two - they chase each other.)

So all in all, all of you are right on some points. It is very hard and exhausting work. I'm simply expressing my hope here that these particular dogs are a fit for us and that all the hard work -- on both our parts -- ultimately results in a mutual, more familial bond.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I re read what I wrote and my apologies it sounded hard.
I was in a hurry. Well, no excuse, but I wish I had written it out better.

Last March I had two five month old litter mates for two weeks. Honestly, it was unreal. Unimaginable the work. You must be exhausted.

I do think it could get better for you. My hopes are that you find some joy and rest.

[BG and Gavin]

First of all, you must be exhausted.  I think because you are working from home, you never get a break from them.  I remember being a frustrated puppy owner by times and it was sometimes necessary to leave him at home in the crate for a few hours and go out for my own sanity.  Multiply that by two difficult puppies and well, I can only imagine.  So my disclaimer is that I have never had this situation before, but off the top of my head...

- yes it is important to get a trainer that you are comfortable with (and the one you met sounds horrific)

- I would be tempted to separate them during the day for various periods of time (crate one) and have the other be with you in your office then switch and put them together to play outside

- for your own sanity crate both of them for periods of time - I remember Gavin would go and go and like a baby a sleep time needed to be scheduled for him (in the crate) and once I put him away, he would fall right to sleep.  I have been dog sitting for the last two weeks and I find despite being mature adult dogs, that they keep each other going and Gavin is not getting his usual naps during the day so occasionally I put them in separate rooms for quiet time.

- if you don't do this already, I would make their lives super structured and put them on a rigorous schedule (e.g. morning walk, feeding, crate time, play time, outside time, crate time, training time, afternoon walk, supper, crate time, training, outdoor time, bedtime) - you get the idea - reinforces your position as their caregiver and their reliance on you rather than each other

- I totally understand that you do not let them on the furniture - again I think setting and enforcing these kind of limits will help in their training

- they are likely both at their energy peaks (age-wise) and will for sure calm down some, so I do not think they will be like this forever

Again, I have no experience with littermates or two at a time (other than for short periods) so these are just my ideas based on my dog sense.

[BG and Gavin]

As I wrote this the two doodle were driving me a bit batty with their chews and squeaky toys and following each other around, so I put them both in down/stays on their respective beds and both passed out immediately.  So my final tip is to work on a good down/stay for each dog lol.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

YES.....thank heavens for the "down/stay".  When my guys get too "wired" up this always works.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I think, as BG said, separating them more often is a great idea so that you can bond individually with the dogs - and they to you.  Have you considered doggy boot camp?  Normally, I think it is better for you to work with your own dogs, but in this situation, perhaps sending them out for training, and then getting them back where you follow up, might be a good option.  I do think you are making a good effort, and hope you will  try a few more things for a bit longer, but I don't condemn you if you realize that this is just not what you signed on for and want to make changes - either re-homing one or both dogs. 

[Oliver & Elizabeth]

This sounds very difficult and exhausting. I had no idea about litter mate syndrome until I started on DK. I wonder if this is something that most breeders are aware of, it seems like breeders should be very cautious in allowing a person to purchase litter mates.

While I don't have experience with litter mates, I have experience with being overwhelmed with a puppy. Sometimes I would be exhausted with Oliver's puppy antics within 30 minutes of waking up and thinking that things wouldn't get better.For us things got better, with the biggest changes in behavior occurring between 6 and 10 months. While some of the changes were likely developmental (increased attention span and bladder size), most were related to us developing training routines and better bad behavior management skills.

I think training and socialization will help you a lot. I would try having you and your husband going to puppy class together with both puppies, maybe switching off on who commands each puppy in each class. Training class made my boyfriend and get on the same training system and helped Oliver build attention and listen to us in distracting situations with other dogs. Also, at our puppy class, 15 minutes was devoted to puppy play time which helped the puppies gain socialization and healthy play behaviors and helped us work on calling our puppies out of play. We did three rounds of puppy training, it was a great weekly routine and it kept us disciplined in training. Oliver still isn't perfect, but we're better trainers and know how to be calm and consistent when Oliver does an unwanted behavior. Jumping up is still our biggest issue (and always has been); no treat seems to be as powerful as Oliver's joy to greet us we get home. :)

We also did puppy day care at the place that we took Oliver for training. It was amazing for us to get a "day off" from puppy drama, Oliver loved it, and he developed excellent socialization behaviors. Also he came home tired--a puppy free day and a quiet night--pure bliss! :) With doggy day care though I think it's really important to take your dogs to a place that is very attentive, clean, and practices training throughout the day. I would check out the day care facility really well and try to go to the same place that you go to training at, that way you know the training is consistent. 

I hope it gets better for you, puppies are so hard. With some intense training and socialization, I think things will get better as the girls get older. Definitely take some time to yourself too, it can drive you crazy being with puppies all day. Good luck!