The continuing saga of Noodles and Bootes!

[Lisa & Greg]

Hello all and happy New Year to everyone!

As many of you know, I welcomed two goldendoodle puppies into my home over the summer. They are two gorgeous sisters, Noodles (blonde) and Bootes (brown-black with grey accents). They are now 7 months old.

We were all set to give one of the puppies up in August because we feared they weren't getting along with each other - biting, growling, fighting, etc. We were scheduled to bring Noodles back to the breeder at the beginning of September when someone contacted us about taking her, but that fell through.

We still have both dogs. We couldn't wait for that feeling of love and warmth we've had with other dogs in the past -- that feeling many of you talk about having with your dogs -- but it's just never come.

Noodles is the needy one - very high maintenance. She barks at us as if she wants something, but sometimes nothing we do satisfies her. She also jumps up on us and sometimes snaps her teeth/jaws at us. If she was smaller, that behavior might be manageable, but she's tall and very powerful.

Bootes is smaller and all over the place. She is the more insecure one and over-compensates by barking, running all over, and antagonizing Noodles. She also (sometimes, not often) "nervous pees."

I've often wondered if having the two is better or worse than having just one of them. Together, they occupy each other - although at times it's to the exclusion of us; they don't listen well to us when they're focusing on and tussling with each other. Now if we ever separate them, they go nuts without the other.

I keep reminding myself that they are only 7 months old, but it has been a very difficult 7 months. I work from home (public relations) and have several client calls every day. My last dog Ruby Blue, a Keeshond, would lay at my feet all day while I worked. Now every day I am stressed not knowing how I will conduct business on the phone not to mention how I will concentrate and devote time to my work.

I know I was naive thinking we'd have a similar experience with these dogs that we had with Ruby. I am completely to blame for following my heart vs. using my head when it came to getting two dogs; it's not the puppies' fault.

I have spoken with others who say they're experienced marked changes in behavior when their goldendoodles turn 9 months to a year old. I met a women over the summer who said she bought a 9-month-old puppy from a family who were at their wits' end. The family was crying they were so heartbroken. She said the dog was an absolute terror for the first few weeks but then calmed down and became the most wonderful dog ever. Who knows? Maybe it's us, not the dogs!

I've also heard spaying helps in some cases. Both our puppies were spayed on 12/26, so it's too early to tell if that will help at all.

We contracted with a trainer (Bark Busters) but the trainer came here once and I was very unhappy with his method (i.e. negative reinforcement), so I am planning to contact the company to express my concern. There is another trainer in my area who my vet recommended, so perhaps we'll try her.

I am also considering doggie daycare to see if getting them out and socialized will help.

For more background, in addition to the fact that I work from home, my husband works long hours outside the home (hmm, longer ever since we got the puppies!) and we have two daughters - one is in college full-time and the other just graduated college in May and will start a job this week. They help a great deal with the dogs now but that will change dramatically once the younger one returns to classes in Feb. and the older one starts working.

I keep having the nagging feeling that we are in way over our heads. Should we admit we can't handle these dogs and give them up? Are they just not a fit for our family and our lifestyle? I'll be 51 this month and I'm not sure I'll be able to do this for the next 12 or so years. We wanted dogs to bring joy to our lives but instead, we are all suffering so much trying to live with these two rascals.

We've taken such wonderful care of both dogs and given them love despite it all. We also have trained them -- they were housebroken within a few weeks and are so smart. They understand many commands.

We so want to hold them and cuddle them but they'll have none of it, which makes me wonder if they aren't feeling any love for us either!

Feeling very conflicted, stressed out and guilt-ridden. Any advice and words of wisdom as always would be appreciated. Could it be their food?? We feed them Blue Buffalo (regular puppy type, not the "wild" type). I'm open to any thoughts.

p.s. I know many of you probably think I'm an idiot for getting two puppies, and believe me, I feel like one right now. I've had dogs all my life and never experienced anything like this before so it may totally be the two-dog scenario that's the issue - especially because they're litter mates. I'm just not sure if or when I should surrender or if I should keep trying...

[Lisa & Greg]

Thanks everyone for the supportive words and great information. We did have both dogs enrolled in puppy ed and they completed all but a few of the classes. I'll follow up and finish. The problem with my husband is that he likes to do things his way - so instead of "sit" and "off" he says "sit down" and "get down" (when he wants them off). He gets irritated with me because I'm such a stickler and he doesn't think it really matters. But my daughters and I are very consistent with the terms we use, etc.

I'll look into doggy daycare in my area and also try to find another trainer. I really don't mind fun bouncy dogs that act like dogs; I just can't take the chasing and fighting and barking. I do know now never to go the sibling route again!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Lisa, keep us posted on your progress. We care very much about our members here on dk and want to give support when we can.

[Ashley, Sadie and Coal]

Hi, Lisa.  We adopted male/female litter mates on January 2nd. Of course, we had never heard of litter mate syndrome, and my husband thought it would be a great idea to get two pups... I resisted, but only minimally, since he has had more experience with animals than myself, and he thought it would keep them from being lonely while we are at work/school.  After we had them home a week or so, I googled "raising two puppies," and to my horror, read that we had made a "huge mistake."  Since we have three children (8, 14, 16), there was no option for turning back, so we have been running ourselves ragged trying to keep these pups separate.  

Since we are just getting started, I really have no advice, but hope that we can lament over our mutual faux pax and maybe lean on each other as we progress through this adventure.  

So far, our plan is this:       

We leave the puppies in a room together while we are gone.  They have a crate with no door, water and a ton of toys.  Once we come home, we do not allow them to interact with each other at all.  They are with one of us at all times or in their crates.  We feed, walk, train, play and anything else we can think of with them completely apart from each other.  They sleep in separate crates at night, but side by side.  

One of the things we plan to do is to leave one at home when we go to work, and take the other to a friend's house.  She has two older, well-behaved and well-trained dogs, a doodle and a golden retriever.  We actually had set it up to start last week, but the vet was concerned about Parvo since they are not finished with puppy shots.  We have also considered sending each one to a few weeks of training (boarding) so that we can have time to bond with each of them without any interruptions from the other one.  We have enrolled in puppy classes that start as soon as they are finished with shots.  We plan to try to do them together, but have an option to do it separately if necessary.

At this point, all five family members are actively engaged with the puppies at some point each day.  The puppies still act like they would rather be together than apart, but they both show each of us love and act happy when they are with us for the most part.  Training is going well, although loose leash is a challenge. 

Our problem right now is that we are EXHAUSTED!!!!  This is like having two infants and is a ton of work.  I fear that our vigilance is going to taper off, and then where will we be?  If anyone asks if they should get two puppies at once, my answer is no.  We love ours and are thoroughly enjoying them, but if I had done the research first, it would not have happened.  We would have rescued an older dog or acquired the second pup in a year or so.  We will not ever do it again.  I have learned that when we have a few full days at home (recent snow days), it is better for me to get out of the house without the pups for a couple of hours to de-stress.  

We truly have no idea how this is going to go... I can only imagine the sob stories I will be posting in the near future where I beg for help and deliverance.  All advice is welcome and truly appreciated!  

[Brittney & Cally]

Ashley, there are litter mates in Cally's puppy class and the trainer suggested they come on different days or at least be separated in the class like opposite sides of the group and with their own human! She also has them switch humans half way through the class if they are in the class at the same time!

[Ashley, Sadie and Coal]

We will definitely follow that advice.  The classes are one right after the other, so we will quickly transition to separate classes if they can't focus in the same one.  The other one will leave the premises if we have to do that.  My boys are 14 and almost 17, so we can switch humans as well.  Thanks!

[Brittney & Cally]

Lisa, how is everything going? Would love to hear an update!

[Janice Jones]

How about trying one puppy at daycare and one at home and alternate. Work hard on the one at home for the day. One puppy at a time may make you feel less stressed and more able to enjoy. Expensive, but may be worth a try. Good luck!

[Julie and Max]

This sounds like so much work but it sounds like you are doing everything you can. What your husband is doing with his "doing his own thing" is really hard on your puppies, and also on you who is their main caregiver. The different commands for the same thing confuse the dogs so much and it really is unfair to them, and also to you as it makes training them more difficult. It must also frustrate him as they don't really know what he wants and probably don't listen to him well. I hope things are going well for you, and become smoother. 

[Sally S Miles]

The difference between "down" and "get down" is a syllable, the dog will adapt - or should. One word makes it easier and faster, but they adapt. It's much easier to train a dog than a husband,  stick to the demonstration mode - rather than tell him how to do it. Our girl is 17 months now - we have been married for thirty five years and had dogs throughout - but this is the first one he has been with 24/7 and he admits that there is more to it than he thought. 

What concerns me the most is that the barking, growling, chasing and so on are getting to you and this is not going to stop, dogs play and communicate in this way. It's essential.  Separate them, completely. One at a time give them attention and make them earn it.

This is all such normal puppy behavior, they are just two dogs of very different temperament and drive. This is like having two babies, but babies can't outrun you.   I do wish you all the best and wrack my brain to try and help, wanting this to work for you, but I can hear your pain.

I know yu must be exhausted, frustrated and all - can I send a virtual hug?   I feed off the energy from my dogs, can't imagine having them just drain me (oh yes we have 'wipe-out' moments often).