Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
Do you believe in pack hierarchy?
Thoughts?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ginny Nightingale on
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My three have a hierarchy and it is more pronounced when they are unsprayed or neutered--the spayed female has always been at the bottom, but she doesn't mind giving up toys, etc and it is not a problem. Up until recently, the other female was a breeding dog and her son was intact until a year ago when he was neutered at the age of 2. He ruled the roost (in a nice way though--no fighting) until he was neutered and then he was "under" the female who was unspayed.
Now she is retired and was just spayed and it seems like they are all settling into the same situation you have....their isn't really any dominance, although the retired breeder has 10 to 15 pounds over the other two and tries to be the boss, they just ignore her now!
It could be that your doodles, the personality is similar and they are all equal--I think that happens all the time--it is a problem when they are all trying to be the boss and then you have issues!
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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I do believe in pack hierarchy, and I think you will see it when your dogs get older. I think that by the time they are all over 2 or 3 years old, one of them will have emerged as the clear "pack leader". But that doesn't usually look the way you might think it looks.
A true pack leader or "alpha dog" doesn't display overt dominance; he (or more often, she) doesn't have to. You can often spot the "alpha" in a pack by the lack of displays of force or physical dominance. He is often the one who sits back watching while the others are scuffling and may step in to settle things if he thinks they are getting out of hand. As one of my friends has said of her alpha male, "He won't start anything, but he will finish it."
An alpha may eat first, and be first through a doorway, etc., but usually because the others defer to him automatically, and wait for him to start eating, go through the door, etc. No force or overt dominance required. (When there are puppies involved, all bets are off, lol.)
Actually, the dogs in any pack most likely to be displaying dominance are the beta dogs; those are the ones who are always assessing pack dynamics and looking to move up.
Where you sometimes see pack hierarchy most clearly is when your pack is interacting with other dogs, out in public, on group walks, or in the dog park. That's when an alpha may clearly take the lead position and your other dogs follow his lead.
It will be very interesting to see how your guys' positions in your pack develop as they get older. I hope you'll keep us posted. :)
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Permalink Reply by jenn D on
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Karen, that's interesting because Brisby seems to be the one who sits back and gets off the couch if pickles and Jake get too rough. Also he is the first of the three to greet a new dog. But he doesn't really show any signs of "I'm gonna boss you!" At all. In fact, he seems the most mellow of the three, followed by pickles, then Jake. But it will be interesting to watch as they grow...
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I would have picked Brisby as your "alpha" if I had to guess. True alphas generally are mellow. But Pickles is still very young, so you never know how they will end up. It will be interesting and fun to see.
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Permalink Reply by Joanne ~ Spud* on
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I'll back Karen up by saying the Alpha is not always outright clear as most think. Think Beta as the one who does all the work. Sometimes, the Beta will even seem bossy. Beta he or she is the working dog in the pack. Alpha generally is the one who is protected by the Beta. The one who stays back. You know, " protect the king" sort of thing.
This dynamic can change throughout the course of life with dogs living in the same pack. There are even subcategories too. Alpha and Beta of the females and males. I was able to watch a small amount of this with my neighbors Dobermans over a course of 20 years. At the most, they had 9 Dobermans in a household at one time. With their dogs through death and age, you could see which dog took over duties and responsibilities.
You see this dynamic on PBS when you watch sociologist study groups of primates sometimes.
On a side note, I truly believe in Pack mentality in all groups. Even in Humans. There is a different dynamic that takes place in groups. I just HATE the term, " Act like the Pack Leader", which I think is over used and completely misunderstood in dog communities with humans trying to take over or train a dog.
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That "protect the king" thing that some betas do can be sneaky, though. At the same time, they are thinking about overthrowing him, lol.
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So maybe my Mattie is the "king" after all! I thought she was at the bottom, but the others so respect her and look to her to make decisions--but some of the things Karen describes as Alpha behavior are like Lyric, my largest dog--it's a conundrum!
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Permalink Reply by Rosemary (Ro) and Enzo on
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I think the dynamics of a multiple dog household is extremely interesting. At one point, we had 4 Goldens. A breeding pair that were parents to a female and then, her son. As the female daughter aged..,and I' ll say at around 18 months or so, it was clear she was the alpha dog. Like Karen mentioned, there were no fights, or even disagreements. She was even smaller than either one of her parents, and later on on,her son. But she maintained control of the 3. An unspoken agreement between the other 3? Whatever it was, it worked. ;)
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It's surprising how often the alpha in a larger pack turns out to be a female. Or maybe not surprising at all, lol.
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I was surprised in the least, at this one. Her personality emerged early and was the main reason I kept her out of the litter of 10 females!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Allyson, Peri & Taquito on
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Not surprising at all. My husband is in trouble between me, Charlotte and Peri.
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