Two adult doodles -- its getting worse instead of better.

[Rebecca, Kandy & Murphy]

We have two adult full-sized doodles.  K is 4 and we got her at 10 months.  M is 3 and we've had him for about 6 months now.  He is a semi-rescue -- we took him from his breeder (also my sister-in-law) after she took him back from a bad placement.  M had no socialization or training for the first 2 years of his life, but has been through basic obedience and does OK with basic commands now.

When M came, we expected, and had, several scuffles as the dogs adjusted to each other.  But we expected this would calm down over time.  Instead, it is getting worse.  Now, previously very sweet K will go after M for no apparent reason, biting his neck and pulling him down.  M has always had a problem with a very aggressive "play with me" demands, which we are working on, but he annoys K until she snaps at him.  In the last month we have had 3 full-scale dog fights as one of us comes in the door.  It is unclear who is starting these, but seems to be K.  My husband has been bitten while breaking these up.

Right now we are doing the following:  leashing M when he gets into hyper play-with-me mode; trying to train both dogs to sit when we come in the door (so far, little success); putting one dog outside when they fight (generally whichever we can get a hold on); paying attention to both of them when they are calm; trying to greet K first if they are both near us; upping walks from one to two each day; upping play time as much as possible.

We are terrified that one of the kids (teens, not little kids) will get bitten during a dog fight or that one dog will be seriously injured during one.  And we are very tired of breaking up dog spats.  But it would be devastating to re-home one of the dogs.

Do you think it will get better over time?  Other things we should be doing?  Would the expense of in-home dog trainer be worth it?  I should add that the dogs are loose in the house during the day and M reacts violently to being crated since he was essentially forced to spend his first 2 years in a crate.  K was never crate trained since there was no need.  And I apologize for the length of this post!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I really think you might do better with a Behaviorist.  It would take a really experienced trainer who deals with overall behavior versus just teaching commands to help you through this.  What is M's "state of mind" when K goes for him?  Is he in an excited state...even if it's "playful excitement"?  I ask this because you said that the fights start sometimes when you come through the door.  I have two dogs.....Guinness and Murphy.  Guinness is a mini Doodle who often gets "super excited" about some things....when we come home...when friends come to visit...sometimes even just when I'm playing with them.  Murphy will ALWAYS react to that.....he will try to "correct" Guinness which involves biting his legs and trying to pin him.  I immediately stop this....usually Murphy is chasing Guinness at that time and I calmly follow them until I can walk between the two of them.  I take Guinness by the collar and I correct him (stern verbal correction) for the overexcited state of mind....Murph sees that I have this under control and it stops.  If I see this behavior just because of overexcited play, I separate them and put the in down/stays on their beds until they're calm.

[Ginny Nightingale]

Good advice from Jane--I would just add something that you might think is silly, but it is worth a try--it is simple but I have found it to be effective. When dogs got carried away or even aggressive at the training classes I attended, my trainer had a simple spray bottle filled with water and set on STREAM---she would tuck it under her arm (not pointing it directly at the dogs) and let the stream of water hit the dogs--they would be distracted and stop fighting--I tried this with my dogs when they would get too rambunctious when greeting me--eventually, all I had to do was pick up the spray bottle or even have it on the counter and they would stop--for really serious fights (which my dogs never have but others did at training class) a direct squirt at the head broke it up right away--again, do not make the bottle too obvious--some people think the dog will jump at it and injure you if they are in a hyper state. I think this would prevent the bites you are getting when breaking them up--do not handle them when they are in that state--try water and see if that helps.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Yes, this is great advice.  There are spray water bottles all over the place at our Daycare which they use when two dogs are getting too crazy....they swear by it.

[jenn D]

I also second a behaviorist or a very experienced trainer. One of my boys, Jake, who came to us as a rescue at 8 months and was taken away from his mama way too young does not know how to play properly. He is a 'in your face' kind of playmate and does not know appropriate dog play behavior. Brisby was not really thrilled with this. When Jake first came home Brisby was like "hurray a playmate" which turned into "wait, this dog is CRAZY, mom!". I basically had to be the momma dog Jake never had (and I still do at times). When play gets too rough with him, I can see the signs and he gets one warning from me. If he doesn't listen and calm it down he gets a mama time out. Which means I put him in a sit next to me while the others play. This usually gives him time to "chill out" while letting my other boys continue their friendly play. After his time out I let him go back to playing but usually try to "re-set" the play dynamic by having all the boys do a come sit or down stay and waiting for a treat. It helps to keep the peace with the other dogs because they know "mom is handling that crazy jake". Jake is doing better. I'd love to say someday he could play non stop without my intervention, however I think that no dog to dog socialization at such a critical stage during his puppyhood will be an issue he deals with on some level forever. I'm sure a experienced trainer or behaviorist could help. Good luck and it's great you are reaching out.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I love this advice.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

We got an adult rescue who had some arguments when settling in with our Springer.  One of the things I noticed that they disagreed over were toys (any that they fought over were picked up and not given back).  

One of our older dogs suddenly became grumpy and more reactive with the other dogs.  We had a full thyroid panel done and found out that his thyroid was not working properly and one of the side effects is being grouchy. Meds cured it.  If K's aggressive behavior is not the norm you might want to rule thyroid problems out.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I second the thyroid panel as those issues are common but often are not first considered.   As for the water bottle, this is how we have always handled this situation.    Go to the store and get 10 of them. Place them in all kinds of handy corners in the rooms of your home.   After awhile I just used a stern voice to get attention and raised a bottle.  Without even squirting the bottle, just seeing one in my hand, dogs knew I meant business and I never had to squirt a thing.  I learned the hard way to never reach my  hands into the mix.  

Dog do attack each other to put each other in their place.  I think what you are describing is really not that uncommon.  Disturbing to you, but not uncommon.   Since we can see the severity of the fights this might just be normal.   I like Jenn's advice.  Use good training and let both dogs know you will handle the situation.   It may never be right but it may be better controlled.  

[Debbie and Bentley]

Great advice from everyone. I just want to add how important it is, that no one tries to use their hands (or any body part), to get the dogs apart. I had two dogs (not doodles) who had several serious fights. Two of the fights required stitches and drains for one of the dogs. She was a border collie mix and the alpha. She liked to be bossy, and she was the smaller of the two. I got bit the first time trying to separate them. Dog bites are serious, and require antibiotics. My advice for your kids, your husband, and you, is never try to separate dogs when they are fighting. Get a broom, a chair, anything you can get between them, and try to get one out of the room and get the door closed. In our case, I learned the warning signs that triggered their fights. I think a behaviorist is a great idea because it can be exhausting to deal with being constantly on edge worrying. Both of my dogs lived long lives (14 and 15), but I wish, in hindsight, I would have looked into professional help. Good luck.