food, bacteria and diarrhea

[Debbie and Belle]

i have not posted in quite a while and im very grateful that thanks to this group Belle is now on (and has been for over a year) a food she can tolerate and thrive on without digestive upset :). She has a very sensitive stomach. As a treat in the evening, I've also been giving her a little bit of plain canned pumpkin in a kong toy for over a year. On Sunday i purchased a new can of pumpkin and she had been fine all day and evening. Before bed i gave her some pumpkin like i always do and overnight she was up every hour with diarrhea ( and vomited once as well). Monday she seemed to be doing better and there were no issues at all. I gave her a small amount of her food late afternoon and she did well. Before bed i gave her pumpkin (same can as Sunday night) and she was up every hour with both diarrhea and vomiting. So i took her to the vet and she received fluids. Xrays and bloodwork were normal. I started her on a probiotic yesterday as the doctor wanted to give her an antibiotic before we had the results of the fecal test, and i said she has done very well with probiotics in the past. Belle did fine last night and so far today - no issues. i gave her a small amount of food last night, some pumpkin from a new can i went back to the pet store to exchange, and a small amount of food this morning. the vet just called and said her fecal test showed clostridium bacteria and wanted to give her metronidazole. ive read in this forum that its not good and can be harmful in the long run. should i give it to her in this instance? is it better to continue the probiotic and see how she does (what I'm thinking i should do)? Could this be from a contaminated can of pumpkin?

[Deborah Brown]

It think you need to treat the infection.  This could be the cause of the sensitive tummy that you've been dealing with for a long time.  You will want the probiotic as well while using the antibiotic.  I hope Belle feels better soon.

Deb

[Chris Ringle]

Did the vet say whether it was clostridium diff. or clostridium perf. ? My understanding is that C. Diff may be food based but usually not the other. Usually it comes from exposure to a sick dog or their poop. This stuff produces endospores so it may be present in your pup for an extended period of time and their immune system is able to fight it off. Something changes, and they become symptomatic. Personally, it is not one I would mess around with. It can be difficult to eradicate and can make them really sick. I would do the metronidazole.

[Debbie and Belle]

The papers from the vet say 1+ clostridial OG. Does that help? So far she hasnt had any diarrhea or vomiting since about 7:15 AM yesterday. She has generally been very healthy with no issues since i found food that agrees with her about a year ago.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Clostridium is tricky. As Chris said, there are two different strains. Clostridium is present in the intestinal tracts of most dogs and usually doesn't cause a problem. Here's some info:

 http://www.vetinfo.com/clostridium-in-dogs.html#b

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/clostridium_perfringens.html

As you can see in the second article, a number of different antibiotics can be used to treat clostridium and of those listed, Tylan is by far the safest choice. You might ask your vet about that instead of the metronidazole. Whichever one you use, I'd definitely make sure to give probiotics, and they need to be given at least two hours apart from the meds; longer is better.

Regarding giving pumpkin as a treat before bed, pumpkin is extremely high in fiber and is usually given for that reason, not really just for a "treat". I'm not sure how much you're giving her, but a Kong full right before bed might be one reason she had diarrhea during the night and not during the day, lol. Is there something else you could give as a treat? Maybe freeze some plain yogurt in the Kong? Or some plain meat baby food?

I'm fairly sure that the clostridium isn't from the canned pumpkin. But I'd make sure to thoroughly wash the Kong with soap and hot water every day. 

[Debbie and Belle]

So it would be best to give an antibiotic, even thought she's doing better, since the fecal tested positive? I can call and see if they will give the Tylan. The pumpkin I give her before bed in the kong is about 2 tablespoons and I freeze it in the kong. I do this because she had always been sensitive to many things and this is something she tolerated and looks forward to every night.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge of clostridium. It's my understanding that dogs can test positive for it even when they have no symptoms and are unaffected; but since Belle does have symptoms and there doesn't seem to be any other explanation, I'd say it does need to be treated to be on the safe side.

[Chris Ringle]

Debbie - I am not familiar with the OG listed in your culture report so I am not sure which strain they are talking about. Karen is correct that about 80% of dogs will culture out C. Perf. at any given time. That is what I was talking about the endospores. They just hang around in the body until for some reason the immune system can't fight them off and then the pup becomes sysmptomatic. Most vets agree that it is not necessary to treat unless they have symptoms (which your girl obviously did). I am a nurse so certainly not a canine expert but see a lot of parallels with my pups. Clostridium, in humans, can be very difficult to cure and can make people very sick. Metronidazole (Flagyl) is the gold standard for treating it so that is one I would not hesitate to use in my pups for that condition. My vet uses the Tylan powder quite a bit but usually when they have something going on that is not responding quickly. From what I have read, it is effective in treating Clostridium but is not used as a first line drug as often.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Tylan is being used more and more as an alternative to metronidazole for many conditions, due to much lower side effects and more knowledge about both drugs. There was a time when metronidazole was considered the "gold standard" for treating giardia, too, but now it's Panacur. I do think it makes sense to talk to the vet about it, of course. 

[Debbie and Belle]

i really appreciate everyone's reply! When I called back to speak with the doctor about picking up an antibiotic, the doctor that saw Belle yesterday had left so i spoke with another doctor at the Vet. She said the test showed a very slight overgrowth of the bacteria that is naturally present, and that if Belle is doing better it may make sense to wait and watch her, while continuing the probiotic. Midday Belle ate about 1/2 her normal breakfast serving. At dinner tonight, i offered closer to her normal dinner serving and she ate all of it. She seemed to have close to her normal energy level. So far no vomiting or diarrhea, but I'll see how she does overnight. The vet I spoke with later today when i called did leave a prescription of Tylan so I can pick it up if Belle's symptoms returned this evening or tomorrow.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This sounds good. I hope she continues to do well.