Do I Really Need to Feed a Large Breed Puppy Formula for my standard F1 labradoodle?

[Danna]

I know this topic has been discussed, but I am just so confused by the info out there.  I have an 8 week old male F1 labradoodle.  His mom is a 60-65lb lab and his dad a 55lb standard poodle.  Before going to the vet, and reading a lot of info, I had decided that large breed puppy food was not necessary.  At our first vet visit 2 days ago, however, my vet told me to make sure to get a large breed puppy formula food.  She told me that since large breed puppy formulas have been formulated, she has seen almost no cases of osteochondrosis whereas she used to see quite a bit of it.  

Anyone out there feeding a large breed puppy formula?

  

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

My vet told me the same thing, so I DID feed Winnie one bag of large breed puppy. But, then I stopped when I read on here that she truly wasn't going to be a "large breed." 

Karen will jump on and tell you the facts and reasoning- I trust her info. more than my vet (when it comes to food selection)!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thank you Lori. In fact, I did study nutrition in college, and the vet did not, lol. 

[Jill DeMartino]

Hi. 

Just was kindly wondering where you get the information for your food recommendations.  I, too am wondering whether or not to go with regular puppy vs large breed puppy food.  I spoke with both Fromm's nutritionist and Acana's nutritionist via phone.  Both companies agreed that my goldendoodle female puppy needs a large breed formula to prevent rapid growth spurts.  The calcium and phosphorus levels differ in the large vs regular puppy formulas.  She is expected to be b/t 40 and 60 lbs at adult weight.  She is currently 15 lbs. at 15 weeks of age.  Any factual information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you:)

Jill DeMartino

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

My info comes from a variety of fact-based sources, including veterinary nutrition textbooks and Marion Nestle's books on pet foods. 

I'm quite surprised to hear that both Fromm and Champion (Acana is the name of one line of food, Champion is the company) have nutritionists available to take phone calls from consumers. That's great to know, I'll have to take advantage of that myself. It's interesting, because a number of people here have called Fromm to ask about feeding the Four Star all ages formulas to puppies and have been told that it's perfectly fine, so maybe their nutritionist can clarify that for me. Every time I've called, I've gotten a customer service rep. 

The issue with calcium to phosphorus ratios is that they can affect the likelihood of a large breed pup's having developmental orthopedic diseases, which is what the concern is with rapid bone growth; however, there is no agreement among even among the experts as to what the ideal ratio should be, and the differences between regular formulas versus "large breed" formulas is negligible. The real differences between "large breed" and regular puppy formulas lie in the fat and calorie content, and to a lesser extent, the protein percentages. In general, the goal is to prevent the pup from gaining too much weight too fast. Again, this is really of the most concern in the giant breeds. In fact, all of the studies on this subject have involved Great danes, so it's hard to know if the same factors would apply to dogs in the 50 lb range, or even 70 lbs. But there's no harm in feeding a "large breed" formula if that makes you feel safest. 

I can't reproduce most of my source material here because it's in books and not online; but I did find one article that may help, and I will look for more: http://www.petmd.com/blogs/nutritionnuggets/jcoates/2013/march/what...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

No, your puppy doesn't need a "large breed" formula; those are intended for the giant breed dogs like Irish Wolfhounds and Newfoundlands, who don;t complete their skeletal growth until well into their second year (18-24 months). The only difference between "large breed"  and regular puppy formulas is that the "large breed" ones provide less fat and calories so that the dog doesn't get too big too fast, and possibly strain the joints before they are ready for that much weight. That just isn't a concern for most standard doodles who are going to complete their skeletal growth by 9 or 10 months of age and aren't going to get that big to begin with. In addition, while the causes of osteochondrosis are unknown, and may involve gaining too much weight too fast, the primary cause is believed to be genetic. 

You could feed a large breed formula, of course. There's no harm in it, except that you usually have to feed more because it's lower in calories and therefore it will cost more. You will also have fewer options. To me, it makes more sense to monitor your puppy's weight and not overfeed him, so that he doesn't gain too fast. :) Of course, not everyone does that; many people don;t even measure out their dog's food carefully or feed on a schedule; they simply dump some food in the bowl and free-feed. So the pet food companies take it upon themselves to protect large breed dogs from their clueless owners, lol. It's kind of like the seven placebos in the package of birth control pills; the women are too stupid to remember when they should or shouldn;t take a pill, so we'll just make it easy for them, lol.

Here is the nutritional difference between Orijen's regular puppy food and their large breed puppy food, just so you see how small a difference it really is: 

Calories per cup, Reg: 490 Lg: 456  (34 calories per cup difference)

Fat, Reg: 20% Lg: 16% (4% difference. This is the biggest difference, and that's only because Orijen's formulas are high in fat to begin with. I suspect the difference would be less in most other lines)

Fiber, Reg: 5% Lg: 6%  (1% difference)

Calcium, Reg: 1.3 to 1.6% Lg: 1.2 to 1.5%  (one-tenth of one percent difference.)

And that's it. 

I would mention here that both formulas have the exact same protein content, 38% in each. So many people think it's about the protein, and it's not. 

So the only real significant difference is that the large breed formulas are a little lower in fat, which makes them a little lower in calories, which helps keep puppies whose weight isn't being well monitored by their owners from maybe gaining too much too fast. 

[Jessica, Loki and Moose]

the birth control reference cracks me up! LOL

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I do try to interject a little humor here and there, so thank you for noticing, Jessica! 

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

Karen, I read that you also need to pay attention to the calcium: phosphorus ratio when looking at foods for "large" breed dogs. Do you look at those ratios as well?
I do find it interesting about the calorie count. I just checked the brand we are using and you're spot on. It looks like the regular puppy food (holistic select) also has more protein - which must account for the caloric increase?
Although, I follow suggestions in here, I felt compelled to feed Gracie a large breed puppy food, but then once she reached 10 months, I switched her to just regular formulas. I guess I felt I was erring on the safer side. Now, I'm considering an all life stages so that everyone can be on the same food! :D
Thoughts?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Protein and carbohydrates have the exact same calorie count; 4 calories per gram for each. It's fat that increases the caloric content; fat has 9 calories per gram, or more than twice that of either protein or carbohydrate. 

The calcium:phosphorus ratio is identical for the two Orijen puppy formulas I compared above, and I suspect that would be the case with any regular puppy food versus the large breed formula within the same line. 

All Life Stages formulas are fine for puppies as well as adult dogs. 

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

Makes sense. Thanks!

[Gracie, Jade, & Barkley]

This has a calcium:phosphorous calculator and supports your advice as to over feeding and such.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy...

Also, from what I've found, most of the higher quality (DK approved brands included) all fall into these guidelines as you've outlined, Karen.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's great that you are doing your own research on this. The more we educate ourselves, the easier it is to make good choices. :)

Thanks for the link, it's very helpful!