Getting frustrated with the biting

[jamiegirl]

I have heard and read a lot about trying to be "calm-assertive" with your dog no matter what. I love the concept, only it is very difficult to mask my frustrated energy after our puppy nips and bites me several times. I try the loud "ow" for a few times and leaving her in a form of time-out but the process just starts over when I go back to her after a few minutes. I think the nipping starts out playful for her but when I try to correct her, the snap is accompanied by a menacing snap. Our first day of puppy training is tomorrow (finally). However, I don't know if this is something that the trainer could even address with the group.

[Phoebe's Mom]

How old is your puppy? We have an 8 week old who LOVES to go after my youngest child--and the rest of the family as well! There is nothing menacing about it which is why I am writing it off as playful puppy play and teething. One thing I have had some success with is the 'puppy time out.' I bought a pen for her--36 inches high which I have cinfigured to be comfortable but small to limit accidents--and when she is out of control and the children get scared, in she goes for a few minutes. It is like redirecting a child who is acting out. It is not a perfect system, but it does seem to calm her down to where we can pet her and keep putting a chew toy in her mouth with risking life and limb. Every time she opens her mouth when we pet her, I place a chew toy in and praise her. I am hoping that, slowly, she will learn apporpriate chewing!

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Calm assertive is a fine idea, but i believe better as a theory than a practice. For young puppies like yours I like to always have a good chew toy ( or 2 or 3) right with me when I play with them. As soon as the mouth opens in goes the chew toy. You can play tugger with a young puppy, it is even okay if they win. You control the food and the play so by definition you are the dominate one. Young puppies ( my 10 month old is still pretty mouthy when he is excited) learn and play with their mouths, to save your skin ( and mine is getting pretty thin!) akways have a toy handy. I am not sure what you mean by "correcting" at this age it would be like trying to stop a six month old baby from gumming everything in sight. You almost certainly will be frustrated! Just use a toy. You can rub and tumble and play just keep popping that toy back in! If you have to get up to get a toy either you do not have enough toys or you are extremely neat!

[Adina P]

Calm assertive was hard for me too...it took about a year I'd say to achieve that! and only with my own dogs.

If this puppy nipping stuff is new to you, "calm assertive" won't come quickly. Hold the idea in your head, but don't beat yourself up if you don't achieve it.

Remember that your puppy is NORMAL and chances are will outgrow this regardless of what you do.
Remember that your puppy's attention span is TEENY TINY and you will have to repeat the time-out over and over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER! before it will really sink in =) So don't expect her to 'get it' just yet.

Purposely play with her on the floor and encourage her to take your hand in her mouth so she learns how to be gentle, YELPING when she bites hard and then putting her in time out. Repeat often gradually reducing your tolerance so that even touching her teeth to you results in you YELPING!

She might need MORE than a few minutes of time out to calm down. After a few minutes, give her a toy to play with but don't take her out of confinement right away.

Most of all remember it's only "annoying as heck" but she won't injure you.

DO NOT focus on "correcting" as she obviously isn't understanding it and thinks you are joining her in a battle. Plus it gets YOU riles up. BELIEVE ME...I had JAWS incarnate for almost a year! Tried it all..and the right things NOT often enough.

[Yvonne, Riley, Murphy and Luca]

The trainer should be able to help you. Mine had me pop the leash everytime Riley tried to nip at one of us and it has all but stopped unless he is REALLY excited or after my youngest son (which is his fault for not being able to WALK calmly around the house, and instead runs at full speed).

All of the ideas stated above I have and do use too. I use the chew toy when he is really excited. In this state there is no stopping him with a "no".

Good luck and know that you are not alone in the frustration of the shark puppy syndrome:)

[Joy Originator of GiantSchnoodles]

Nipping Puppies by Joy de la Ren
Nipping Puppies positive approach
Try this. Try to anticipate when he is about to go into routine. Give him a command like --gentle – then treat and say – gentle good gentle– You will find that when you say – gentle – he will be distracted expecting a treat. Even if you don’t anticipate it, and the puppy mouths or nips, say “gentle” and still treat. After a few days he will forget about getting into biting or mouthing mode.


reprint of nipping Puppies by joy de la Ren
Sun Nov 2 03:09:50 2003
66.121.113.155
Joy R. or other experienced pup person, re:Nipping Puppy
Fri Jul 11 16:00:07 2003
24.209.189.51
I was calmly petting and playing with an 8-week-old puppy and it kept gently biting my fingers and toes (I had sandals on.) I was not teasing him or playing rough when he did this. Is this normal puppy behavior or a harbinger of things to come? I haven't had a puppy in yrs. and can't remember. A book I was reading said that you should not pick the puppy in the litter who nips/bites a lot. Otherwise, he was an absolutely adorable puppy who let me hold him and loves to interact. What do you think? Thanks!
Hi Sara, I don't allow a puppy to nibble even gently on a human. I use a lot of different methods. If they are biting my hands I say "gentle, give kisses" and put my hand perpendicular to their mouth and insist on getting a kiss. I put a chewy, usually a cow hoof in the mouth and say "this is YOUR little chewy". I make a distinction between yours and mine on many things. I yip like a wounded puppy. Or I growl like a big dog. If they grab my pants when I'm walking, I say "gentle” If they do it again, they could get a chin chuck. I know a lot of you don't like this but it works for me. "gentle" then with my hand in a fist I chuck them under the chin. It isn't hard but it isn't pleasant. After a couple of times, "gentle" is sufficient. It happens so fast that I don't think they know they got the chin chuck from me. They just associate the unpleasant chin chuck with biting. The important thing is when child comes up to pet my dog on the street, they don't get bitten and I get to not be hauled into court. It's worth it to me. I also hand feed my puppies. I might hand feed the whole meal if I have time. They only get the food if they are "gentle" I say "gentle". If I feel a tooth, I put the kibble in my fist and they don't get it until I only feel tongue and lips. Sometimes they have to miss a meal to be hungry enough for this to work. I do this to gentle their mouths at a very young age, I think about 5 weeks. Definitely before they go to their new families. Everyone who has gotten one of my puppies has reported that they are gentle and don't nip. Of course the owners are instructed to continue what I've been doing. I also suggest that you read Leader of the Pack to learn how to teach your puppy not to treat your children like littermates. If I get requests, I will post my puppy instructions to the new parents. I really love to get feedback when I share my methods. Please keep me posted. PUppy love from Joy and furry gang

Here are some posts regarding nipping and biting. A dog of any age should never be allowed to nip a human or human clothing. It must be stopped as soon as it starts. My puppies are trained “gentle give kisses” at 4 weeks. They should not be nipping when they go to their forever homes.

Schnoodle, Doodle, Poodle Hybrid Chat Forum
Tony Piscitello
Aggressive Behavior
Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:51pm
68.15.8.190

Crate trained 10-week old Tessa, an adorable Giant Schnoodle of Joy, joined our family 3-weeks ago. My wife, Melissa and I also have a 1-1/2 year old daughter, Nina, who is very loving toward the puppy.

During the work week, I take Tessa out for potty/walks/runs during the nighttime, first thing in the morning and a few times in the evening. Also, in the morning Melissa gives Tessa her full loving attention. She feeds her then takes her out to do potty and walk/run before our daughter gets up.

We non-violently discourage aggressive behavior, i.e. no tug-o-war, no rough-housing, no jumping up on people or gates, etc. We work with the "no biting, kisses" command to discourage biting, which typically works. Tessa has several chew toys to keep her busy when she's not sleeping or out for a walk.

Like any 1-1/2 year old, our daughter requires most of Melissa's attention. When Nina is playing by herself, we make sure to give Tessa our full attention and love to show her that she is important also.

When Tessa gets excited she's particularly aggressive with our daughter by jumping on her and biting. However playful it may be, Nina is getting bitten and we are extremely concerned that Tessa will hurt her. We supervise the two together, but taking our eyes off for a moment and we find Tessa being aggressive with Nina.

If Tessa doesn't get our full attention, she nips and/or bites for attention.

We love Tessa and want her to remain a part of our family. Please help with your prompt suggestions to eliminate Tessa's aggressive behavior and avoid our daughter from getting hurt.

Concerned,
Tony Piscitello

Hi Tony and Melissa
First let me say that ordinarily, I seldom place a puppy with a toddler. But Nina is an incredible child. She had an immediate communication wi Xena. Very unlike a toddler. She just had a way about her wi dogs. She reminds me of me at that age. However, she still is a toddler. The puppy is probably seeing her and treating her like a littermate. Littermates bite each other. A book I recommend to most people is Leader of the Pack. Its an easy reading book that tells how to set up the hierarchy in your family so the dog knows her place. A dog that does not have a strong leader will try to take over leadership of the pack. A dog likes a strong leader so she doesn’t have to take over leadership. She would prefer to follow if the leader leads. The puppy expects to be told what is expected and is comfortable if disciplined by the leader. The puppy will play with the other puppies. They nip each other. If you watch the group, you will see that the mama dog will discipline them. The puppies will also cry out in pain when they get nipped. The puppies respond to each other by inhibiting their bite. This teaches them to inhibit their bite in other situations. If you read my article, I mention several methods of getting the puppies to stop nipping. 2 of the methods are growling at them, like the mama dog does or squealing in pain like the other puppies do. This article also includes several other techniques you can try.
But the most important thing is that as wonderful a child as Nina is, she is still a toddler. I think she and Tessa should be separated for awhile until she is able to establish her place above the puppy in the family hierarchy, and until the puppy is a little older and has learned and established her “gentle” and that should be “Give kisses”. If the puppy nips, you should give complete concentration on the puppy and insist that she give kisses and don’t remove your hand from her mouth until she does give kisses. Don’t forget to say “good kisses”
At this time, you should never take your eyes off them when they are together. Tessa will have to learn to stay in her pen while Melissa is occupied with Nina. Playtime between the 2 should be limited to the time that you &/or Melissa can put aside to watch them both very carefully and not take your eyes off them. When Melissa is busy with Nina, Tessa will have to be in her pen or crate with her toys. Once you set up the hierarchy and when the puppy is a little older, this will pass. But Tessa should never have an opportunity to nip any human or human’s clothing. Also, Tessa is a very intelligent dog who needs to be learning new things. Her brain is like a little sponge. I suggest that you start clicker training. Tessa could be learning to sit and down. She can earn treats for doing this behavior. Then when it looks like she is going to misbehave, get her working on what she has learned and treat her for it. Notice I said “when it looks like she WILL” in other words, anticipate the behavior and substitute it with something else that is positive. If you don’t have time to anticipate and focus on Tessa, then Tessa should be in her pen or crate. Additionally, you mention that Tessa nips when she is excited. This should be monitored. Dogs and kids feed off each other’s moods. If Nina is excited, Tessa will pick up on it, and they will escalate together, just like a couple of kids. If Tessa is getting over excited, she needs to be confined before anything happens.
Negative reinforcement for nipping should be consistent. Any move in that direction should be met with immediate correction whether it is isolation, collar jerk, growls, ouches or whatever you choose and whatever may be appropriate for your dog at that particular time. I don’t’ mean it always has to be the same negative reinforcer I mean there must always be an immediate negative reinforcer. It should take place within one second of the behavior. It is best if the negative reinforcer is followed by a command to do something positive and the positive reinforcer should take place within one second of the positive behavior. This can be difficult to concentrate on for one person, a toddler and a puppy. I suggest that you have an x pen that can be moved around the house so Tessa won’t be lonely, and can be with Melissa and Nina, but cannot get to Nina when there isn’t enough time to work with Tessa. Another thing you can do is tether, Tessa with a leash to yours or Melissa’s belt. If she mishaves, you can jerk her over to you immediately by the leash. So please try these things along with the suggestions in my other article and some of the suggestions in the article Sheila linked to. See what works best for you. I know this seems like a lot of work but when you find what works for you, I think you will find that it will turn around quickly and you will love the result. Pls keep us posted on how it goes. Puppy love from Joy, Furry Folk, Xena and the Twinkles***

Hey Joy,
Just a quick note to thank you for the great insights & experience in this article. I agree, most folks don't agree w/a chin chuck, etc. but it has worked for me. As you said, it don't do it hard, but he rarely nips or bites on me or my pant legs ever.
I believe I told you, I have a 4-1/2 yr. old daughter who takes a beating from the puppy in this regard. I feel bad for her, because she loves to play with him and of course he can't play with her without biting her, snarling her clothes, etc. She's a tough girl and doesn't really mind, etc. I have occasionally told her to "wack him" under his chin, etc. She says NO BITE and screams a zillion times a day at him (which makes me a little insane, lol). Of course, I intercede and the puppy stops for a brief moment, sits down & looks at me while I say NO BITE, redirect him to "his toys", etc. then continues to bite her in play when I walk away. You know, how exhausted I get. The tether strap you suggested has been an absolute God send in terms of the potty training, and keeping the puppy & my daughter Adrienne separated at times and giving me some relief. Thanks for that great tip.
I am going to try to let Adrienne hand feed the puppy with me sitting next to her to see if that helps. I think your idea is a great one, and will definately let you know how it goes. I'm thinking that maybe I should sit with my little one and the puppy and help her do the "no bite, kisses" thing w/him. I want him to see it coming from her though, and don't know if I would confuse the matter. What are your thoughts ? If you have any other ideas re: little kids, please let me know. It's hard because I don't want to teach my daughter agressive behaviors as she is too young to know the difference. God forbid, she would chin chuck a playmate, ha! ha! I wouldn't put it past her if I taught the behavior as she's a tough, very strong, little girl. Then, again she most likely would understand if I continuously explained the difference to her.
I laugh sometimes, because I'm pretty experienced with training dogs and have always been very successful. Then again, I've never had a very spirited, active Labradoodle ! Our last puppy was a Leonberger giant breed, and even at 8 weeks was way to BIG to get overly zealous w/anything ! He was also very laid back... Prior to that, we had German Shephards.
Aside from all that, I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your posts and that you share so freely only tells me that you are a confident, logical and very caring person who puts her heart & soul into breeding. How fortunate are those who purchase their pups from you. Thanks so much ! Do you have a website? Where are you located ?
I'm getting my next puppy from you !
Respectfully,
Tracy
Lambertville, MI

Hi Tracy, Hi Tracy, What a lovely email to receive. I don't know that I have the answer but I'll try. I think what is happening is a very dangerous situation. Not only for your daughter, but for other children who may get bitten. Your dog is treating your child like a litter mate. [Read: Leader of the Pack] In my opinion, a young child should never be left alone with a large dog. First of all I would separate the 2. I would not let your child play with the dog if she is being bitten. I would have your child help you feed the dog as I suggested in the post on biting and nipping as long as she can get the timing right and not give the kibble or treat unless she is for sure only feeling tongue and lips. I would do things to put your child in a superior position in the pack such as she eats before the dog, goes through doors first etc. and other things suggested in Leader of the Pack. However, I would not let her play with the dog until the dog is no longer biting her. One bite, nip or mouthing is a giant step backward. I realize that this may be difficult for your daughter to accept but none of us always gets everything we want, do we? In time and with diligent and proper training your puppy will learn not to bite and then you can gradually allow them to play together with close supervision. As I said, if you allow this to continue, the behavior will not stop. Although your daughter may be a tough little girl, if this continues and another child is bitten, the liability can cause you to lose everything including your home if you own it. Personally, I grew up thinking it was normal to get bitten on a regular basis. It wasn’t a big deal. But these days it is a big deal and you need to be careful of liability. Also, I think maybe it’s a bigger deal than my parents thought it was. Also, this kind of biting will not get better with time. It will probably get worse the more the puppy knows he can get away with it. So keep him tethered to you and let your daughter use the crate as a safe haven. She’ll probably love it. Make it clear that she only touches the dog under close supervision. When you are doing a chin chuck or hand feeding teach commands. “lips” “good lips” “gentle” “gentle good gentle” “kiss” “kiss good kiss”. When you tell the dog what is expected and then follow the behavior by telling the dog that the behavior was “good”, this teaches the dog your language so that you can use it from further away when you are introducing the child and dog to playing together again. Clicker training is an excellent way to train these commands. Remember, timing is everything. The command must come just before or at the same time as the behavior. The reinforcement whether it be “good ___”, a click or a treat must come during the desired behavior or within 1 second or less. Hope this helps. Pls keep us posted on progress.
My web site is www.campstamp.com Scroll to bottom left corner. Click on dogs of Joy. For recent pics click on photos and then photo albums.
Puppy love from Joy and furry people

BTW, I breed giant schnoodles of Joy and I start training them at 4 weeks. When the new parents get them, they are usually within days of being housebroken and they tell me that they don't nip or bite. My web site is
HYPERLINK http://www.giantschnnoodles.com

. For latest pics click on photographs, photo albums Puppy love from Joy and furry people
[e-mail] wrote:
well the nipping battle isnt over... but there is progress. we have been holding her muzzle and saying no bite and then ignoring her. She HATES to be ignored. We also say good kisses when she gives kisses. i think it was you who suggested we make her kiss us by putting our hand perpendicular to her mouth. this has worked well also.


Hi Suzanne, I suggest that instead of holding her muzzle, you put your hand up and say give kisses. If you have already trained her to give kisses when she's not biting, she'll switch her attention to positive behavior. If you are afraid that she'll bite when you hold your hand up, give her a treat and then say give kisses and treat. I know that sounds like your reinforcing her for biting, but it doesn't work that way. She will actually change her attention to positive behvior. Pls let me know how it goes. Puppy lvoe from Joy, furry folk, Karma and the Twinkles*** 1 male & 1 female available

Jodi @ MBH
"Corrective Jerk" Training Aid (long but worth it)
Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:39
24.161.198.245

With all of the talk recently about puppys nipping & "Mis B-Having" (sorry I couldnt resist that)... I want to share with you all the training method that I use, it is highly effective & requires absolutely NO physical repremand,

Let me start off by explaining how & why this works,,

as we all know dogs do not understand english, they learn to associate words, but realisitically they do not speak or understand human words. for example, if your dog's name is "Roscoe" he comes to that, but if you were to call him "Boscoe" he would still come, beacuase he associates the sound to his name, try it, call your dog a name that rhymes with his own name & see for yourself...

so with that understood it is absolutely NO wonder why dogs do not understand when you tell them "NO, Bad Dog, Get Down, Dont Jump, Stop, Come, Stay" those are human words that they do not understand.

the ONLY language a puppy knows is his mother's language, & that is (all of us breeders have seen it hundreds of times) when a puppy starts to piss his mother off what does she do? She lunges towards him teeth bared, & snarls, growls or barks at him, I have never seen a mother actually bite a puppy, just the imediate fast motion towards the puppy is enough to send the pup off running & squeeling, or roll over with a submissive pose.

so what we can do as humans is apply the "Mother's language" to our training & teach the puppy human words using what he already naturally knows.. & that is called "the Corrective Jerk"

here is how it works,
lets just say the problem is the dog is barging through the door when ever you open it.. I had that problem, Darla was ruder than rude when it came to this, it was dangerous because when ever Grandma was over Darla would barge her way through Grandma almost knocking her over, I NEEDED the dogs to wait for us humans to go through first, & sometimes I didnt even want the dogs in, but I have 2 kids that lag behind when coming in the house, so it was just very important for me to have the dogs wait..

so what you do is. open the door & tell the dog to "WAIT" you need to use firm words, strong words, that you can say with conviction. Open the door & the first time Darla tried to barge through just as always, just the INSTANT that she took one step forward I applied the "Corrective Jerk" & do to that you stomp your foot & lunge towards her IMMEDITELY or you can shuffle your feet towards her,, the first time I did it Darla ran off of the porch like I was a mad woman, she immediately came up to the door again & I said "WAIT" I opened the door to walk in & she hesitated this time before trying to barge her way in, I again applied the Corrective Jerk shuffled my feet to her & stomped the ground, she again high tailed it back the opposite way, the next time I said "WAIT" she took a step back & sat down NEVER ever again made an attempt towards the door.
We put her to the test & I said "WAIT" & left the door open, & acted like I was messing with something & ignoring her, she NEVER took a step forward.

this was a dog that I had a HUGE problems with, I NEVER thought should would ever do it, but in a 10 minute training session, with NO PLYSICAL REPREMAND AT ALL Darla now Waits at the door & is so polite. I never once touched her, all I needed to do was apply HER language to MINE, she understood the lunge towards her, I reinacted what her mother did to her,

you can apply this to ANY situation, dogs jumping on you?
tell the dog STOP (that is they command word I use), the instant that they take their front paws off of the ground I stomp & shuffell towards them, it takes 2-3 times at the very most for them to get it.. Puppy Nipping? same thing, I use the word STOP, & as soon as they come at me with teeth or as soon as they put their mouth on me, I lunge at them, growl & snarl back at them, it sounds silly I know, & you will not have to do this in public, because you puppy will learn what the HUMAN word STOP means through his language & will associate it, & when you say the word STOP, he will know, & when you are in public all you have to do is say STOP, & they stop..

Now let me explaine to you why PHYSICAL REPREMAND doesnt work,, have you all watched 2 dogs play? they run & hit each other with such force that often times one goes rolling the other way, they bite each others ears, legs & tails.. Im sure you have ALL seen this right?
well when you hit your dog when they are Mis B-Having (sorry I couldnt resist again) you are NOT hitting them & hurting them, because dogs hit harder than that in play, but if you pay CLOSE attention what the dog is reacting to is NOT the physical contact, they are reacting to the fast moving hand coming towards them, & basically you are doing a version of the "Corrective Jerk" but YOU are following through with a physical hit, TRUST me the dog is NOT reacting to the hit, they are reacting to the fast movement towards them prior to the physical contact..
you are NOT going to hit your dog hard enough to hurt them, you really would have to send a blow to get their attention in that way. & who wants to hit their dog like that?

summing it all up,,,
You CAN train your dog faster, more effectively with OUT physical reprimand,,

If anybody needs a little more explanation call me Ill be happy to help you, there is a few more training tips I can share with you to go along with the Corrective Jerk for the dogs that do not react to the stomp & shuffel,

hope this helps, Im tired of typing now, my hands are numb,
:0)
Jodi
I agree with Jodi’s approach. I use it without realizing I’m using it. I’m just actually a dog. The only thing I would add to Jodi’s approach is to make sure that you give a command for them to walk through the door. – Xena Pass - and a release from the wait – Xena free –

Noelle
THANK YOU!!! This is SO helpful.
Sun May 6, 2007 11:01AM
71.143.154.18

I also felt like this needed to get taken care of right away, but I was worried about the bite inhibition thing. We have a narrow hallway that we can gate off and put the crate inside of the hallway. I also already have a tether, so I am in a position of really supervising whenever the two of them are together. One thing I didn't understand is that if the puppy nips, to keep my hand in her mouth until she kisses. I shouldn't be doing that with my daughter, right? That's just for me?

Also, should I be discouraging my daughter from approaching the puppy from the other side of the gate if they are separated?

Do you happen to know the author of the Leader of the Pack book? Is it Patricia McConnell?

Thanks again very, very much. I know this is going to be a challenge, but my older ones are such great kids and have been waiting forever, as in years. I just had to find a way to make this work for everyone. I also have been drilling it into them that if they allow the jumping/nipping, the dog will think it is OK to do to my daughter as well, so we're trying to be very, very consistent with everyone.

Hello Noelle,
1. I think U misunderstood. I did not say U should keep your hand in the mouth until she kisses. The teeth of the puppy should never make contact with human skin or human clothing. I think U are talking about how I train my puppies. I put my hand perpendicular to the mouth & have them give kisses. Never in the mouth.
2. I forget the author of Leader of thePack but it isn't Patricia McConnel. Although I think anything she writes is worth reading & heeding. Check Amazon.com for the author.
3.Your daughter should not approach the gate when they are separated. U should choose times when U can give complete attention to the interactions for them to be together. She should not approach the puppy on her own. I assuming that when the puppy is behind the gate U have a reason for him being there & that isn't a time when U cna give them full focus. Children's attention time is short. They can be distracted wi doing things other than be focused on the puppy. Same wi puppies
4. Quit worrying about the psychological health of your puppy. U, or whoever wrote those books are anthroprophorphizing. U are not going to do permanent psychological harm to your puppy by setting consistent boundaries & sticking to them. Nipping behavior is normal but totally unacceptable as are hitting behaviors in children. The information U have read in the books & in my post are a set of tools to try & see what works for ur puppy. There is a time to throw away the books, try out the techniques & use what works. Kind of like a concert pianist who practices scales but doesn't play them at a concert. They are just to learn the technique.
5. It is more important that U quit worrying about the psychological effects on your puppy than it is to have the confidence to try things & do what works for the behavior. The puppy can sense your fear & apprehension & that's what he can interpret as a weak leader. When puppy feels like he has a weak leader, the survival of the pack depends on him becoming the strong leader. That's where behavior problems begin. So my best advice to U is read, learn & then throw away the books, use ur intuition & assume the same confidence that U do wi ur children. You have lots of techniques to try, so see what works wi ur puppy & don't stress on the negative effects U think using the techniques might have on your puppy. Mostly keep your toddler away from the puppy unless U have no other distractions including phones, other children, doorbells, cooking etc. The child has other toys & so does the puppy.
Good luck wi ur puppy. Pls keep us posted. Puppy love from Joy & furry folk

Noelle
Thanks again. I did
Sun May 6, 2007 1:25PM
71.143.154.18

misunderstand about the hand in mouth thing. The no hitting analagy was really helpful. It's ironic because I am absolutely the leader with my own children and I am actually a really strong personality. I just felt like my hands were tied with the nipping and jumping - so much don't do this, don't do that in these books and I got confused. I knew that my nervousness was a problem and I was trying to think my way out of it. I agree I need to stop analyzing and just start doing and keep with what is effective. I think I just needed permission to be more physical (ie chin cuff) if the more positive, gentle methods weren't working, although I will try those first.

Thanks again!+

Gentle command: Put a treat in your fist. Hold tight till you only feel tongue & lips. I say “gentle”. When I only feel tongue & lips I say “gentle good gentle” & they get the treat. Keep doing this til they get the idea. This is an important exercise for any dog to learn to take food from a human. Without it, if someone feeds your dog from their hand, even without your permission, if they feel teeth, they can accuse your dog of biting.

2/12/08 In looking over the material I’ve collected here from what I know now, I would change all my commands to “gentle” or a word other than bite for 2 reasons:
1. giving positive reinforcement for a “no” command is confusing
2. Never say bite in front of other people. It gives them the idea the dog is biting which it is not. Can also give them ideas which you don’t want them to have & put you in a place of liability.
Shari
Please help - we need some advice.
Tue Jan 1, 2008 7:25PM
69.125.110.190

We have a 21 month old, 30 pound, adorable mini goldendoodle named Riley. We have had him since he was 8 weeks old. He's very energetic, house trained extremely quickly, and we have great times with him playing fetch, cuddling, etc. We are a family of four with a ten and fourteen year old. Our problem is that while most of the time he's adorable, playful and fun, he sometimes snaps and bites without explanation. He sometimes gives a deep growl as a warning, but sometimes just snaps and nips. It can happen when we're playing, when he's resting and we go to pet him, there doesn't seem to be a reason. He has nipped at children a few times, usually at a hand or finger, and has scratched with his teeth. He always immediately runs to his crate when these things happen. We have started keeping him in a pen when children are over because we feel that we can't trust him.

Today we had three year olds over. He was locked up, but my daughter took him out. She was holding him, but when the girl went to pet Riley, Riley bit her on the forehead! She now has a large bump and bruise on her forehead with some broken skin. Thank goodness it wasn't an eye.

We have talked about this before, but are now seriously considering rehoming him. Any advice? How would we begin the process of finding an appropriate home? Is this an issue that can be trained away? We are heartbroken. We would appreciate any help. We are in Rockland County, New York.

Thank you!
Shari

Hi Shari
I am including some of my previous posts & articles on nipping puppies. It generally applies to younger puppies than yours but maybe some of the basics were missed in his training & you need to go back to basics. I do recommend that you have a behaviorist come in & observe all members of your family interacting with Riley. I am training a cockapoo that I rescued for a lady in a wheelchair as a service dog. The lady kept complaining that the dog was biting. I didn’t see it so I was having trouble finding the cause. One evening I was there late & her DH came home. The first thing he did was put his hands in the dog’s mouth. That gave the dog the message that it is okay to put teeth on human skin. This is never okay behavior at any time. Is anyone rough housing with Riley when your not looking? Is he getting any messages from other situations & sources that this behavior is okay? What actions have you taken when this has happened in the past?

Re rehoming. As has been pointed out to you, this is going to be difficult. If you place the dog & someone is injured, you could be liable. I have successfully placed a biting dog twice. My rescue friends frowned at me for doing it & I have mixed feelings about if it was the right thing to do. I don’t know if I’d do it again, but it did work out. I placed a lasa apso (they are the most vicious dogs – bred to bite) with a spry 80 year old lady in an adult retirement home. She had full disclosure in writing that he had bitten a child. She took great care to be sure he did not come into contact with children and she was careful with adults. Its been a successful placement for over 6 years. The other one, also a lapsa was with a lady in a wheelchair, again, full disclosure in writing. The lasa is bred to reside in the sleeves of the clothing of royalty & jump out an dnip at anyone who gets close. This is the behavior this lady wants. People in a wheelchair are vulnerable. People go up to you and touch you without permission. She wanted the dog for that kind of protection. She had previously had a lassa and was used to this kind of management, however in her care, the dog bit a child. She dealt with it and was fine with it. So she continues to use the dog this way and is more careful about management. Which brings me to the next issue.
I had a giant schnauzer who bit someone. Not a vicious bite but an excited lets rush the new person & check her out and taste a little. Fortunately I had insurance who paid out $30,000 before they cancelled me.. To keep that dog, I would have had to do a tremendous amount of management. Dog could not go to the office with me & the other dogs, He’d have to stay home Management means, any time the repairman, gardener, poolman comes into the yard, or the public comes into the office the dog must be secured. .Knowing myself, I am not capable of that consistent kind of management. I rehomed him to someone who wanted a dog for protection & who had a walled yard. They were up for doing the kind of management that I am not capable of. It was a successful placement. Again, full disclosure in writing with the dog carefully placed in her name (AKC registration, license, microchip, nothing in my name.) I would never trust him but in her care he seemed to become kind of a wussy 100 lb lap dog who got along with everyone. Maybe she was the right personality for him. I, obviously wasn’t. If you opt for management, I suggest you ask yourself if you and your family are capable of that kind of management and be really honest with yourself about the answer. I hope something in these posts are helpful to you. You have some hard decisions to make and/or some had work to do. Please keep us posted. Good luck & puppy love from Joy & furry folk

[Jodie]

I share in your frustration as our puppy is about 10 weeks old and the nipping/biting is getting to be a bit much. It seems like there are so many corrective issues to deal with in this stage that I feel like I'm ALWAYS getting after my little Dex. I want him to learn the proper way to behave around people and in my house, but it begins to get overwhelming at times.

I have also asked for advice on the biting situation and I've heard all kinds of opinions about how to deal with it. We also tried the big DOG yelp if we were nipped by our puppy. We also did a little bit of a grab by his neck (not forceful, but more gentle with a firm "no bite". We've also grabbed his snoot/nose and said, "no bite". Incidentally, that was NOT the best option! It antagonized him to come back for another BITE! Recently, I was told to compress his tongue with my thumb and say, "No Bite". And then, of coarse, there is the option of putting him in his crate (which I don't want to do as a source of punishment). All of these things seem to help for a few minutes and then he's back at it again. We also have a 5 yr old that is constantly being nipped by the puppy. I can see that he goes after her more then anyone else in the family. He will also nip at our other dog, but he nips back when he has had enough and Dex seems to understand that language and will walk away.

I will tell you (AND THIS IS PROBABLY BAD ADVICE), my husband does NOT tolerate the puppy biting him AT ALL. The first time he did it, he sort of held Dex down on the floor and told him, "NO BITE". Dex whined (he was not hurt, but probably scared). I didn't like it, nor did my children. I was upset at my husband for being so harsh with our new puppy. But guess what?? That puppy of ours gives my husband the MOST respect of any of us!! He WILL NOT bite him. It's as if he remembers and he will open his mouth by his hand and then pull away and raise his paws in the air and paw at him. He is calmer around my husband and will sit by him and look as if he's waiting for a command. Totally the WRONG kind of advice to give here....it reminds me of a day when spanking your children was ok and now it's child abuse and time outs are used in place of it. (No, I don't spank my kids...but some days I think I should have!).

Anyway, I like the advice that Joy has about using a treat and repeating, "Gentle". I will try that one next! Be consistent....I'm trying, but it's difficult.

Our puppy learned to "sit" in one day. So why is it that we are still working on the biting and house training??? It's like he knows, but he's stubborn!!

Good Luck!

[Debbie and Thomas]

What can I say about puppy biting-we are still fresh from this-ours is still on;y 5 1/2 months old and once in a while"out comes the vampire in him". Jodie is right about what her husband did-I couldn't do it but I have seen it work. Your puppy is so young,that at this stage just repitition and monitoring the biting is all you can do. We tried "bitter apple", a water quirt bottle. time outs, screaming "Ouch", pretending to cry, (even though sometimes we were not pretending) Over and over again, repeating"NO TEETH" a least 10 thousand times. Each of these things worked for a while in their own little way, but then it all started again, several minutes later. No one warned us about this and because our last dog never did this-we found it very difficult and were unprepared for this puppy behaviour. I have since learned that this is completely normal, they all do it, they are just "mouthy" dogs. Ours has been in training since he was 10 weeks old and of course acted like an adorable angel during class. Then one session, he showed his vampire act during class and the trainer took us aside and showed us how to ignore him. When he persisted she sprayed him in the backside with the water bottle. He was so shocked, he stopped immediately and went to lie down. Never spray your dog in the face-it can make them aggressive, but give the water thing a try.If he started in on me at home, I would walk into another room and slam the door and stay away for 1 minute or so. When I came back, he would leave me alone. My son's are older-and they would wear gloves when handling the dog to avoid the scars. I honestly think that all of the tips you have received help but that they also just grow out of it. Ours is tuning into the most gentle, best natured dog now. As I said once in a while, when he gets excited, he will grab us with the teeth, but in a much gentler way. No blood, thank goodness. My husband had to go to work one day with bandages all over his hands and a big scab on his nose. He looked like he had been in a fight!! That was two months ago, and the bandages have been put away. Now when we say"no teeth", he listens and stops. So I am getting long-winded but there will be an end to this. I was told this and never thought I'd see it happen, but it really does.

[jamiegirl]

The puppy training class was good in that it showed me that the nip-jump back-jump forward-nip behavior was actually how our puppy played. She had another dog show interest in her after the class and this was how they played. Unfortunately, it didn't help me any this morning when we started our routine again. I got about a dozen bruises on my thighs from her biting. This morning my exaggerated "ow" didn't help me any. I felt like running for the door to put some distance between us but I knew that that would have made it worse. She is 4 months old and is 45 pounds. (We knew she was going to be big, we just didn't know she was going to be THIS big) I better get this right soon = )

By the way, her puppy teacher thought she was "docile" during the class yesterday. The little brat may be a biter but she is a good actress = )

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I think you are right that you need to get this under control now. I will first tell you that dog abuse, like child abuse is just plain wrong and ugly. However, I am older (62) and have been trained by quite a few dogs. ( no I did not get that backwards!) Positive rewards are excellent, but there have to be consequences too, especially with a child in the house. I think it is time to "put your foot down" so to speak. Hire a professional dog trainer to come to your house if it is at all possible. It will only take two or three sessions and is a great investment with a toddler in the house. If this is not possible, do the following:

Remain calm, but firm. If you cannot remain calm, put puppy in her crate until everyone calms down. Make sure she has a really good chew toy always in there, but not a treat. No talk, no touch, no eye contact, just calmly return her to her crate. Always when she comes out of her crate she has a longline or long leash on her with a good prong or pinch collar ( choke collars are difficult to use effectively, and I believe a good medium or large prong is kinder anyway). Tie her to you. She is not going to like this at first, unless she is used to it. If she fusses too much - back to the crate. It does not take very long to learn to drag the line around without a fuss if you just always put it on her when she is not in the crate. If she tries to initiate play with a nip and retreat, MOVE TOWARD HER, pop the leash once, hard, and use a quick short word like "no" ( I know this is not fashionable but it is a good word for this) or "leave". "Gentle' or "kiss" is for when she does it right. Remember calm and firm. If she starts to get too excited, back to the crate. The crate is not a punishment - it is a consequence of an unacceptable behavior. Just like the Dad who held the puppy down until he relaxed. If you watch dogs at play that is exactly what an older dog does with a puppy who has become too obnoxious.

Meanwhile, spend a lot of short(5-15) minute leash times inside or outside on sit, down, and stay. Lots of rewards for desirable behavior. You are going to have to build a good foundation of leash obedience just for the simple things like sit and down using treats. This is a good time to teach kisses with a flat hand in front of her mouth, put a tiny dab of peanut butter on you flat hand if she has trouble with this. You can also teach "leave" at this quiet time. Put a small, smelly treat inside your closed fist. Hold your fist with fingers tightly curled around the treat with the fingers down. Say "leave". Keep repeating leave calmly until all the nuzzling and exploring stop and head moves or turns away from hand. Quickly turn hand up and open hand and say "take".. Progress to Leave with closed hand fingers up, and then Leave with open hand. Depending on your puppy and how often you practice Open Hand Leave will take a few days to three weeks.

When you absolutely know that she knows sit, reinforce the verbal and hand signal with a leash pop if the sit is slow or non existent.

The nipping and playing is normal, but 45 pounds and a toddler and you sounds a little over the top.

So here's the morning scenario. Clip leash to puppy, let out of cage, no toddler yet. Let puppy run and be excited because it is morning. If she nips at you, MOVE TOWARD HER, pop leash (if you can), "no" stay calm. Morning is a good time to throw the ball to release that excitement. End excitement if necessary by feeding her. Keep her on leash tied to you as long as she behaves and you are calm. More than three nips in a row and it's back to the cage - remember - no talk no touch no eye contact on the way to the cage. Remove from cage in 15 or more minutes, tie leash to you.

Remember a good professional trainer in your home, is a good investment.

Some young puppies, like children have trouble quieting themselves and so putting an overly excited puppy in a crate with lovey and a chew toy can help them learn to quiet themselves.the puppy

[jamiegirl]

I have had some great advice from this site by a lot of people but I have to say that yours is probably the one that has mad the biggest impact. I love our puppy, no question about that. I am sure she loves me, too in her puppy ways but you are right - getting abused is not right. The "ugly" part of the abuse are the bruises all over my legs and thighs. I thought I was doing the right thing by being patient with her but now I realize that I wasn't doing either one of us any favors.

Last night, she was doing the bite retreat routine with me again and this time I did foot my foot down, literally!. I stomped my foot while I advanced towards her and said "NO!". We did this several times before she resorted to just plain barking at me. At that point, I was just glad that she left my thighs alone. I ignored her barking and soon enough she was distracted by something else and stopped. I know I have tried this form of correction before but I think that because I was getting so frustrated with the process that this time she realized "Mama isn't playing anymore".

I can almost guarantee that that would not be the last time she will give this a try. However, I do feel good knowing that I can let her know that I am not going to put up with more of her abuse and still love her.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Thanks for letting me know that I helped some. You are probably over the real hurdle, which was your uncertainty about "correction" or consequences. You should be fine. The key to puppies is calm, firm, and keep your sense of humor.

[Debbie and Thomas]

I love it that you are calling her the little brat. We call ours the little"beast" although he is not that little. Our trainer thinks he is best behaved puppy in class! Sometimes, this idiot of ours just lies there like an angel and watches all of the other dog frolicking during "playtime". What is that about, we ask ourselves. Then the trainer uses him to demonstrate some of the comands because he follows her orders to a tee! We are told he is "very smart, calm and laid back" by her, which he is when she is around. Yeah -right we think, and then we get home and the biting and obnoxious behaviour would begin that evening. We still to this day cannot walk down the stairs of our house without him biting at our feet and legs! He becomes a real "nut case in the evening" when we want to relax. I am home with him all day and he is fine then, but as soon as everyone else gets home and we want to prepare dinner and just sit and relax watching our ptiful Toronto Maple Leafs, he gets like a crazy dog. If you are just sitting down, he will walk or bound over and attack your legs and feet. Or he will jump up and bite at our shirt. My son's clothes are full of holes and unfortunately he is the one he picks on the most. If this is boredom, then that is too bad, so sad. He goes to a dog park with nine other dogs three days a weekfor two hours, he is walked for at least 1 hour every day. If I go out in the car, he always goes with me. He is getting much, much better now, but we still have a long road ahead. It's a good thing he is so cute and he is probably spoiled rotten. We love him, no matter what though