Board & Train Facility or IN Home Training for a fee....what would you do?

[Jodie]

I've searched this forum and I didn't think that I found the answer to my question, but I'm still trying to navigate around these pages so please let me know if I overlooked it......

I'm considering hiring a trainer for my mini doodle. We don't have access to training classes (other then a beginner's puppy class for $20 which is more about socializing the puppy then anything else). I found a place online (Called Midwest Dog Training). They will work with the dogs at their facility for 3-4 weeks or they will do in-home trainings that consist of 2 - 2hr sessions about 3 weeks apart. By the time they are done, they say that your dog will know all the simple commands as well as address behavioral concerns and house training issues. They assured me that he would no longer bite, he would walk on a leash/heel, and barking would be at a minimum.

Our puppy continues to bite. At this point, I can't have him around my daycare kids during the day. I allow him to run around after my kids lay down for a nap in the afternoon. He also bit my daughter in the back of the foot when she was walking to the next room (and it was bleeding everywhere). She didn't do anything to him, just walked past him. He also bit her in the ear a couple of days ago and bit me on my cheek today. I do NOT encourage any type of aggressive play or tug-of-war with his toys. He was used to playing w/my mini schnauzer, but he's grown to be a little bigger then him (maybe only 16 pounds now), so I'm trying to prevent "dog play" as well. I have tried to wear him down before allowing him to interact with my child. I know that a tired dog is a well behaved dog. However, he seems to always come back to the biting.

I have ALWAYS trained my own dogs. I say "always" and I've only had 3 in 23 years. However, I played with them all and easily trained them to do simple tricks and potty trained to go outside. I even had a special needs dog (blind, epilepsy) which did very well. SO, you can imagine my struggles at this point when I'm not getting the dog to act the way I expect. I know that my life is hectic now, but I firmly believe that many dogs can be trained to fit the environment they live in. I know that its a lot of money to spend to have my dog specially trained. But I also consider him to be a family member/friend/daycare buddy that will be around for 10+ years. I would like to know that I have given him the best training I could.

So, is it worth it?? Has anyone invested in classes like this? Would you recommend it? Are there concerns that I need to think about? I asked the trainer how it would work when Dex was brought back home and he said that they use a special collar ($200) that is gentle (Not a shock collar) and uses sensory stimulation to help give commands. He said that he would keep the collar and work with us when Dex came home so that we understand what he's learned. He said the transition is simple because all the commands are coming from a similar source. I would continue to work with him and eventually take the collar off if I felt comfortable. It sounds humane. I'm just wondering what others would invest to train their pups? Is this out of line? My husband thinks I'm crazy to consider it. He tells me to train him myself. However, I'm getting discouraged at the continued biting and feel that keeping him in a kennel half of the day is not the answer.

Thanks

[Adrianne Matzkin]

You certainly have a dilema! I have always been lucky with my pups, I have never had a nipping issue except with my Beardie, a herding dog who couldn't stand not having my kids within her reach. I just kept her in house while they were outside playing until she was older.
Samantha still, at the age of 1 and weighs 60+ lbs, of jumping on me, family and strangers. I am not sure exactly what I am going to do about the stranger part but I know that when she jumps on me, I give out a screech like she hurt me. It seems to be getting better except when I have left her home and I return - she seems to think she just can't help herself.
Have you tried training classes at shelters near by? That is where I have taken my pups - Samantha still goes to classes there.
Maybe some of the others here in DK will have better advice.
Good Luck!!

[Margot]

My quick answer is IN HOME. If your pup goes to "camp" for training, that is great until she gets home... if you do/say just one thing differently, she won't know what you are talking about. I think sending the pup away sounds like a great, easy solution, but in the end not. :(

[Jodie]

Thanks for all the advice, opinions and words of wisdom. I'm actually more concerned about sending Dexter away after hearing what happened to Jane's friend's dog. I hadn't considered that. If I am guilty of anything, it is probably not being mean enough. That may be half of my battle. However, I would take serious issues with someone that beat my dog! That's horrible.

Dexter is about 10 weeks old. He was born on Christmas Day. Since he is a mini goldendoodle, his weight will average somewhere around 30 pounds (give or take a little). His mother was about 45 pounds, his father was a mini poodle that was 15 pounds. Previous pups averaged about 30 pounds. We were hoping to have him be at least that big when he is full grown.

As mentioned earlier, bigger dogs do require more training in the house. I agree. My prior dogs have been small dogs. Dexter will be the biggest dog I've owned. Training has been very simple in the past with the other breeds. I feel that Dex challenges me a little bit more and the biting thing is something I've NEVER had to deal with. He doesn't like to sit on my lap for very long, though I do get a few wonderful minutes of cuddle time with him. I hope that will get better as he gets older.

I was concerned about the ability of Dex to listen to me if we sent him away for training. The trainer assured me that the training they use will be the same for me to use. They use that sensory collar and I guess that we are taught how to use it as well. I've never heard of them before, but he told me it was NOT painful in any way to the animals. He said I could put it on my skin and it wouldn't hurt. It's a sensation that redirects the dog. I would hope I'm not carrying around a remote and batteries just to get my dog to sit!

I haven't heard of the local shelters doing any training. I will stay enrolled in the puppy classes for socialization (though Dex seems to love animals). I will also consider the in home option. Oh yea, the cost is $500 for in home and $1350 for the board and train. The trainer said most people choose the board/train option. Like others have mentioned, I think I would prefer to bond with my puppy during these all important early weeks of living with us. I can work with him and having a trainer come to my house would be expensive, but hopefully WORTH WHILE. I just hate that I have to spend the money to be taught something that is most likely written in a book somewhere!! It's going to appear very simple, 'm sure. Oh well, it's only money!

In the mean time, if anyone has any other thoughts about the biting....let me know. I even considered some kind of a muzzle. Would that be bad to do to a dog?? I think it looks terrible. But the biting....that's worse...especially with a daycare.

[Adina P]

No to the muzzle. it's not necessary and will keep him from using his mouth to do appropriate things.

I think you have gotten good advice. Of course I am also sharing my opinion and experience with one puppy:
this little eight week old sweet face

took about a week to turn into JAWS!

And here's the kicker: he only bit me!!! My boyfriend/later husband didn't have to do any special training to keep Rosco from biting him. On the other hand, I tried everything I'd ever read mostly in vain. I don't think it would have mattered if I had sent him away, because I personally didn't have the right attitude and skills yet. He didn't nip anybody else so I'm sure that in a boarding facility they would've said he's "cured" after a day.

Your puppy is young. super young at 10 weeks. Doodles are frequently very mouthy. It's not uncommon for doodle puppies to be very nippy! some puppies indiscriminately nip at anybody. Others are more choosy. However, most likely once he hits four months and on it will gradually go away completely on its own. For free! ( minus the cost of some chew toys and your time). he was a very independent and non-cuddly puppy. Overall he was very mellow and didn't do much wrong except for the nipping. However, at about a year and a half he started getting more cuddly and now he's incredibly loving and affectionate!

Rosco brought me to tears more than once as a puppy. He left bruises. He worried me greatly, and when my husband witnessed his biting one afternoon he was also very worried.

What essentially "cured" him was me spending time with him daily in training for months and months. Through this process our bond grew, our mutual respect grew, and a mutual trust grew. he is now a registered therapy dog and when he gets excited instead of jumping and biting me, he grabs a bone and chews away:-) and I didn't even teach him the part about grabbing the bone!

The way I look at it is that he is only 10 weeks now. Four weeks from now he'll only be 14 weeks. He probably wouldn't have even needed training and by then he would be nipping less. But 14 weeks is still very young and he will still have lots of exuberance and will still need a ton of training anyway because 14 week old puppies have a long ways to go before they are reliable.

Some breeders have training programs where they keep the puppy longer and you pay for them to learn puppy basics or a little more. In those cases I feel a little bit better about it because at least the puppy isn't being bounced back and forth.

Will this training facility give you references from people who have sent puppies as young as yours to them for the same period of time? I would want to be able to speak to such people to see if there was a major change in behavior between 10 and 14 weeks warranting the cost. Was it hard to maintain the training?

Also, how much 1 to 1 attention does the puppy get while he is away? How much playtime? How much crate time? What kind of socialization does the puppy get? 8 to 12 weeks is one of the critical developmental periods & the first fear period where the puppy should have as many safe new experiences as possible.

I am sure that there are great boarding and training facilities out there. But I too would be hesitant to send my puppy away unless I was able to witness some of the training firsthand and get references so I could talk to past customers with similarly aged puppies. I also think, that for serious obedience training a board and training facility would be better suited to an older puppy/young adult dog. their attention spans are longer and what they learn will stick a little better.

Finally, I would ask around at your vet and other vet offices as well as grooming places and your local shelter. Many towns have good trainers who don't offer classes but might give individual training.

[Jennifer]

Honestly I think your puppy is behaving normally, just wait it out and train him yourself. I've read that labs are very, very mouthy (nippy, biting), so I think some doodles are as well. Gromit is shockingly mouthy, but now that he is 14 weeks he is really getting much better, but he still has a ways to go. He is still nipping but not using much force, so the next step is stopping the nipping altogether. A few weeks ago (around the same age as your guy), I couldn't walk without him grabbing the back of my pants and biting them. He would nip at my hands when I pet him, definitely nip at the kids, and grab at my scarf, you name it. Now he is much better. He pulled on my pants this morning, and it was the first time in about a week! I've done two things, I'm working on a command "leave it" and the moment he lets go, even if by accident, I say "YES" and reward. Also, our puppy training class is socialization and bite inhibition, if that tells you how common it is. The trainer told us to yelp "ouch" but don't pull away. Get louder with the ouch as needed, but leave your hand there so that when they stop you can say something like "nice kisses" and have them like your hand. This seems to be working, and we are going to progress to the point where the puppies think our skin is the most sensitive thing in the world. Also, apparently being mouthy as a puppy is a very good thing, because it gives you many opportunities to correct the dog so that as an adult when they can really do damage they already know not to bite. The fact that labs are so mouthy as puppies is probably one of the reasons that they are so good and gently later on, and so are doodles! For the really extreme biters she suggested playing with them when they are attached to a lead/leash and attach it to a bed or something, and then if they don't respond to the ouch command, get up and say "Ouch, I'm not playing with you" and stomp off, I guess they really do think about why you left and learn to stop. The other thing to do if the puppy is jumping and biting is to stop and ignore until the behavior stops. I hope that helps, I think it is so easy to worry about our puppies, but honestly your little guy sounds 100% like a normal doodle, and not overly nippy. In about 3-4 weeks you will be well on your way out of this phase.

[Adina P]

one more thing.... here is an answer I gave to somebody else that I think applies in your case too (substitute the name Marley for your pup's name):

So the best way, in my limited experience, is to TAKE AWAY ALL THE FUN and ATTENTION when they do NIP. But first YELP like they tore your leg off and get up and LEAVE the room. Close the door behind you and leave puppy alone for 30 seconds or so. If you do it enough, once his memory and attention span grows he'll realize he loses all the fun and friends he has and is left ALONE when that happens. If nothing else take him to his crate and leave him there for a few minutes to chill. Don't make a fuss...don't look at him and scold him..don't look at him at all. Just grab his leash (and it reallly helps to have a light leash on him (but supervise so his leash doesn't get caught on furniture and choke him) and take him to his crate, expen, or behind a baby gate to a safe room.

But don't forget to YELP bloody murder! (save this for daycare free moments!)

Next you can try the following suggestion I gave to someone else recently:

Don't know how old your kids are...but consider taking the kids aside (while Marley is crated) and doing some "training" with them :-)

Teach them something TO DO when Marley "attacks" or Marley is bugging them. The typical thing advised is to teach the kids to "Be a Tree." Now if they get really good at BEING a Tree and committing to the game, then it gets in the way of them screaming and running and totally egging Marley on.

To Be a Tree they have to plant their roots FIRMLY in the ground (adult meaning--STAND STILL and don't run!!!).

To Be a Tree they have to wrap their branches around them (adult meaning--don't flail your arms in the air to entice doggy).

To Be a Tree they have to look up at the sky (adult meaning--don't stare at the dog and make eye contact).

To Be a Tree they need to hum a song or recite a poem(adult meaning--instead of screaming they are occupied with singing something memorized so their mouths are busy making other less exciting noises to the dog).

I would plan to keep Marley crated for an hour or so and in that time teach them how to "Be A Tree" -- then set them free (Marley still crated) and practice little drills: Everybody BE A TREE! and reward whoever is in position fast enough (but don't tell them they will get a reward...surprise them with something they like). Then next random drill "What do you do when Marly attacks!?" And again reward whoever is fastest at the demonstration, or both of them.

Next shout out..."What if Marley keeps attacking even while you are being a tree?" The answer is still for them to demonstrate Be a Tree. Do a few drills like this so they are "on their toes" and when Marley attacks you might need to help them out with a reminder and hopefully with hope of a reward from YOU and a chance to do something they are now good at (via the practice) AND the fact they are singing a song/poem you will recognize as "Mom help Marley is attacking" will help things quite a bit." So do pick a song that you will recognize as "help marley is attacking." It won't end his nipping, but it will keep it from escalating when the kids don't participate by screaming and running and making it super fun!

[fergie11]

Oh my gosh, I was reading all these answers, and I think they were all great but then I got the comment from you that your puppy is only 10 weeks old. He's so-so young. Wait it out. He'll quit - he's still got those tiny puppy teeth. He needs to bond with you and your family. Don't send him away. I also agree that no-one can come in and work with a puppy for 2 hours. Fergie is 1 yr. and by the end of her 45 minute obedience class she goes a little brain dead. You can buy a training collar for your dog and use it yourself. I did and it worked great. But, this all comes with time. Your little Dex is just being a puppy just those kids are being kids at your house. Enjoy that puppy. (I probably shouldn't talk so smart since my new puppy is coming in 12 days and I'll probably be going nuts too.)
I really love the be a tree thing. I think we should have a sign for new people coming in the house and we should all (adults too) to "be a tree". That really might get a dog to stop jumping. Hang in there - Dex and you will all be fine.

[LeAnn, Lucy & Rusty!!]

I completely agree. Give it some more time.. he's just an itty bitty little puppy with a big mouth.. but the difference between 10 weeks and 13 weeks is amazing... hang in there.. Buy any of Susan Garretts books and start channeling your puppies energy into puppy games... I highly recommend Crate Games DVD... it gives great foundational information too. Since it's been awhile since you've trained your dogs.. you're probably doing the old style "corrections". In recent years a new style of positive training has come about that is amazing. I taught Lucy a trick in 15 minutes while my parents watched - even they couldn't believe it. Doodles are SMART SMART SMART. Learn how to engage his little brain. Learn the ins and outs of positive training (I think it's absolutely amazing).. Susan's book Shaping Success is a great book on dog training and positive training. Hang in there!

[Jodie]

THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!!! I appreciate ALL the replies. It's nice to know that my concerns are warranted and hopefully curable as Dexter gets a little older. I know that 10 weeks is young. However, I also have this phobia that I'm not doing enough training while he is young. There is only one puppy class that is offered locally (30 min away) and they refuse to let the puppy in if he's over 14 weeks old. They said that they have made exceptions for smaller dogs, but they prefer that the puppies are young. So, I have been freaking out because I feel like I'm running out of time!

I'm still interested in knowing more about this sensory collar that the trainer mentioned. I may have to look into that and see what I can find.

Tonight, I spent about 20 min working with Dexter. He knows how to sit and I'm working on stay (and he learned to shake on his own...so I have included that as well). After playing, I took him outside for a potty break. Then, I came in the house and made sure to give him a few toys and proceeded to take a bath. Within seconds of getting into the tub, Dex was in trouble. He began biting on my 5 yr old and she was screaming at the top of her lungs. It apparently enticed Dex to bite harder and he even included LOTS of barking. My husband had his hands full and couldn't get to Dex and my daughter immediately, so he got about 3-4 good bites into her legs and one on her forearm. None broke the skin, but most will probably bruise. My husband was furious. He yelled at Dexter and he ran under the table to get away from my husband. Naturally, I cut my bath time short to remind them that Dex is a puppy and continuing to yell at him does no good beyond the "NO NO". However, before I could get back to them, Dexter decided to POOP IN OUR LIVING ROOM!!! He's NEVER done that!!! In fact, he's only pee'd in our house in small spots. This was bizarre because he'd already been outside and has NEVER pooped inside EVER.

Naturally, my husband is concerned that this is going to be a problem. As far as he's concerned, the biting is out of control and he told me "you need to figure something out because I'm not going to allow him to use our child as a chew toy!" He was upset, and I understand that. I honestly feel so guilty about ALWAYS shoving him in a kennel. If it wasn't for me, he would spend all his days and nights there. I thought I wore him out, let him outside and now he was going to be a good boy and play for a bit before bed. BAD IDEA!! I know, I should have been right there to watch him. I guess I'm expecting a full grown puppy almost overnight.

So, at this point, I'm thankful for the positive comments, but I'm also worried that I can't fix this as quickly as my husband would like. I even bought the "bitter spray" and I put it on my other dog and my daughter's hands (it's safe for fur and skin). Dogs aren't supposed to like it and will shy away from it. Not Dexter!! He licks it when I'm spraying it out of the bottle and then licks the fur on my dog!! It doesn't seem to phase him at all. He bit my daughter when she tried to pet him too! (Yes, I washed her hands afterwards). I was willing to try anything and failed again!!!

Patience....Time.....I hope it will be enough!! I'm still thinking about the trainer coming to my home. It's $500, but what could it hurt?? He's driving about 4 hrs to get here and the collar is $200 and he's going to stay for 2 hrs (twice). It's almost worth it really.......I'm considering it.

Thanks again!

[Adina P]

First, Dexter should NEVER be unsupervised with kids. Ever. Too risky for both.
If you have a crate, then your bathtime is one time you should ABSOLUTELY use it. Either that or bring him into the bathroom and shut the door to keep him in. If you don't like crates, exercise pens (like a crate but bigger) work as well as baby-gating him into a small, safe room with nothing he can destroy. When you are able to be near, but can't keep both eyes on Dex...loop a belt through a leash handle and tether him TO YOU so he is only a leash length away. Essentially, one way or the other...puppies MUST be confined when not fully (both eyes glued to puppy) superviseable either by crate, expen, babygate or tethering. No other options are safe---plus it keeps puppy from learning/practicing bad habits. AND prevention is the key to controlling bad habits. Confining when a pair of adult eyes is occupied is a MUST.

Second, WHILE Dexter is crated or otherwise confined... do daily training with the kids and run drills as I mentioned above in the "be a tree" description. Puppies and kids are about equal in the attention span/obedience category--don't expect more from them than they can give. But with practice they can all learn. Yelling at a puppy for nipping is like yelling at a 6 month old for wanting to put everything in his mouth. NOT fair.

Third...get the kids involved in training so eventually they can say "Dexter, SIT" and Dexter will also recognize their little high pitched voices and obey =)

Fourth...perhaps sit down with your husband and share with him some info on nipping from the internet. Enlist his help in choosing how you will deal with it as a family constructively based on commonly accepted effective measures. Print stuff from here that we've said to others if you don't want him to see this thread. Go to the main forum thread and do a search for "nipping" and "biting" and you will find all the past discussions and responses. Get on the same page so Dex isnt confused.

[Sandy]

Listen to Adina!! :) Seriously, she talked me off the ledge a lot when Toby was little. He was such a little nipper/biter. I thought I'd lose my mind. Now, I don't have any little people in the house, but Toby mostly just bit me, not my husband or my sons. He bit, and bit, and bit. But slowly it got better. Than we went to puppy classes, and it got a LOT better. Then his baby teeth fell out, and it stopped. He still likes to hold a finger in his mouth, but it's not an aggressive thing, more a comfort thing, I think. :)

I felt so tied down when Toby was little, because I was with him 24/7. I never, ever left him where I couldn't see him, unless he was in his crate. And I will admit, I did not use the crate nearly enough. If I had it to do over again, I'd use the crate more, just for my sanity.

I hope you find a way to enjoy your puppy soon. They do grow out of this, and I would say the pooping was a fear response as well. Toby still has his moments of extreme boisterous behaviour and wildness, and to that end, we are going back to obedience school next week. Good luck with Dexter!

[Debbie and Thomas]

Wow-this is like deja vu.I truly feel your pain. (no pun intended) We have a five and 1/2 month old huge puppy who is now almost 50 lbs. When he was 10 weeks old the biting started. Our kids are older but they has to protect themselves with layers of clothes and sometimes wore gloves when this little"beast"went after them. The biting was unbelievable. I had never experienced this before and used to go to bed worried every night as what we were going to do. I had cuts all over my arms, hands, even on my mouth and face. Sometimes I would even cry. I didn't know what to do. He started puppy training at 12 weeks and we wanted to take him sooner-but it was Christmas and classes were not being held. The difference in going to these was unbelievable!!! Even if they do just interact with other puppies-you will still learn a few of the basic commands and establish a more postive relationship with your puppy. It is SO MUCH FUN too! We finished the 8 week basic training and are now in our third weeks of intermediate lessons. Our dog LOVES IT !. Thomas is still a very active puppy but seldom bites like he did. If he does get excited he can still be "mouthy" but he is very gentle now. I really think they just grow out of this. having said that-you still have to deal with it. Listen to Adina-she helped us tremendously with her advice. It seems that most of these doodles do this-but they do grow up to be lovely, gentle, fun loving dogs.