One Step Forward, Two Steps Back, or to the Side, or in a Circle.....

[Sandy]

We walk Toby three times a day. Each walk is about 1/2 hour long. Every walk is a training walk. He is always corrected for pulling, for not having a loose leash, must sit at street corners, must sit and accept praise if someone wants to meet him, and must meet other dogs politely. Some days all of this goes relatively well. Other days (like this morning, for instance) he pulls, gets corrected, pulls, gets corrected, over and over and over again. To the point that I am getting a sore shoulder. Don't mistake what I'm saying - I don't "yank" him....it is as we have been told in class - a series of light pops until he turns and carries on with us. It just makes walking such a chore! He is not quite 9 months old, but just wanted to vent a little, and hope others have perhaps gone through this AND come out the other end with a well behaved dog.

[nonnie browne]

Hi Sandy
I have no idea if this is accurate or if it helps, but my trainer has explained that at 9 months (the teenage years) some dogs have a periodic "attitude" and regress. She told us that if we see this (unlearning what we used to do well), just step back to baby steps and reduce the training sessions like we did when they were younger. She said some dogs will do this just once in a while, and some seem to do it for a whole day - just like teenage sulking or obstinance. She encouraged us to just keep doing all the right things as they work themselves through the crazy adolescent phase.

[Sandy]

That makes sense, because one day he will be close to perfect, the next, not so much. I'm not going to give up because I KNOW he can do it. I must admit, I will be glad to come out the other end of adolescence.

[Adina P]

I'm no expert (just pretend to be ;-)) and I'm not there to actually SEE how he's doing in progress (can you have someone video tape you on a walk???) but my guess is that maybe, just maybe, this method isn't working. You aren't failing, he's not failing...but this particular method to train loose leash walking isn't working. To really evaluate things I'd ask yourself if overall you think that as far as leash walking goes...he's HONESTLY progressed overall or not. If you can honestly say YES he is moving forward overall and overall better daily...then by all means keep at it.

If you honestly question then maybe another method or tool is needed. Because if something isn't effective, simply repeating it lots doesn't make it any more effective. If your implementation of the method is correct (what does your trainer think?) but he's not progressing ... I'd look into other ways to get the job done.

I for one tend to believe that if you're going to give a correction it needs to get the dogs attention...and WELL. If not I think most dogs just learn to ignore it. Flat collar corrections, in my opinion, are not very effective except for very very very sensitive dogs who thrive on approval. That doesn't sound like Toby. Toby sounds like Rosco. A tug on a flat collar would have been a joke...at most nagging. A good correction makes the dog want to AVOID the correction in the future. Hence where choke chains and prongs do a fabulous job---I would say given your shoulder...a prong would be better because you need better timing and more power put into a choke chain correction so it's not 'choking' but a strong pop.

But that's not a different 'method' that's just a new tool.

If you want to keep to what you're doing, I would shorten the walks...1.5 hours of training walks is A LOT. More than most 9 month olds are gonna succeed at. I would maybe do two 15 minute training walks....and then strap on a no-pull harness or head halter and walk FAST for exercise with him the rest of the time. Or take him to the dog park for exercise...using the trip from the car to the dog park gate as training...repeating as often as necessary till he is calm upon entering the gate.

I would also make more use of treats if you want to stay mostly 'positive'. The thing is there's gotta be something in it for Toby. A dog will either work to avoid corrections or earn a fabulous reward. If corrections are light and rewards are light...it's not motivating.

Just my thoughts...

[Adina P]

Another thing...I firmly believe that teaching "loose leash" is HARDER than teaching heel. Loose leash is a more complex idea for the doggy brain...whereas 'heel' is VERY specific and more easily understood. Perhaps work on heel for those two 15 minute walks...rather than 'loose leash'.

[Sandy]

Thanks for your input. If you're not an expert, you do a very good imitation of one. :)

Yes, I have Toby on a flat collar. And he does sound like Rosco - the pops to Toby are kind of like....whatever. We have tried a Martingale collar, and it seems to work "less" well than the flat collar for some reason. I do keep treats with me on a walk, and reward him when he is "with me". As in - when he is within easy reach and doing a good job.

We do take Toby to dog parks, and he does do much better during walks when he's more tired. We walk him three times a day when we can't get to the dog park because he needs to expend the energy. We have a fenced yard, but he is just now learning to chase a ball, so the yard is not enough stimulation and exercise for him yet.

I will soldier on. We have two weeks of classes left, and then I will evaluate whether this method is working for us or not. The only alternative suggestion the trainer has had thus far is to use a Gentle Leader. I didn't want to go that route.

[Adina P]

There's nothing wrong with the gentle leader...I'd say it is most useful at keeping the dog from pulling your arm out WHILE YOU TRAIN. Just gives you more control so you're not fighting a strong puller ... but it alone doesn't train anything, just prevents strong pulling. He may still pull some, but it won't pull your arm out =)

In all honesty, corrections work best when they give the dog some level of discomfort (not pain or injury of course) so they want to AVOID the correction. A correction that isn't undesireable to a dog is just not effective. I've heard the term "Goldilocks principle" used to describe the perfect correction. Not too much to freak out the dog, not too weak to make the dog ignore it, but JUST RIGHT =) This is nearly impossible to do on a flat collar. (And you never tug or yank on a GL).

At the same time a correction should result in the dog being CORRECT again so it can receive praise and the nice rewards of doing things right. Then there is a clear distinction between correct and incorrect.

On the other hand, if you prefer positive training...then those treats need to be absolutely to-die-for in Toby's eyes. He should want those treats BAD so he does what it takes to earn them. And you need to take smaller baby steps on the walk so you only walk forward as long as he's in position.

[Lynne B]

Leash corrections will not likely solve your problem, nor will it make walking a pleasant experience for either of you. You might want to see if you can get in a class led by an APDT or CCPDT certified trainer, the training techniques they teach don't involve corrections- just positive reinforcement.

If you can't do that, try a gentle leader- make sure you adjust it correctly or it will slip off. Or, try not using leash corrections and just stop moving when he pulls, just stand there until he comes back to your side prepared to walk with you. The trainer who taught me this technique calls it "be a tree" - when the dog pulls you stop moving and become a tree- its amazing how well it works

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Hi - In my doggie experiences - the teen-age years are a pain. Roo at 18 months seems to be completely over them. Last summer at 9 months he was a bundle of goofball energy. I had my foot in a cast, so my husband walked him for an hour in the morning which almost got him through until aboutt 3 p.m. and then I would sit in the heat in the backyard with foot propped up and throw his floating bone into the pool for at least two hours. It was hot, but if I stayed in the house where it was cool, he was crazy. Tigger is 1 year and totally ornery. Even more so than Roo was, I think, he will be outright defiant sometimes. Just hang in there. Ask your trainer about using a "pinch" or "prong" collar. I like them much better than choke collars which I think are dangerous to the windpipe with pullers and just plain hard to use. A properly used good German prong ( prongs are very rounded and dull) is extremely easy to use, hard to pull against, and effective. Some trainers really don't like them, some people don't either. To me it is kinder to give one quick meaningful pop, than ten perhaps less harsh flat or choke collar pops. A properly fitted and used pinch (prong) collar is completely inactive unless it needs to be used. I love using positive reenforcement and with a prong collar, properly used, there is a lot more opportunity for "good boy" and treats. To me there is a difference between punishment and consequences. Humans can understand both, but dogs can only understand consequences - prompt and short.

Also I agree with Adina, teaching "loose leash" is the hardest concept. "Heel" or "close" are much easier for dogs to grasp. The leash is loose, but they must stay by your side. If you want to walk with your puppy at the end of the leash, at this point, you should be on "take a break," or "sniffers" If you are on break or sniffers it is your responsibility until the dog is older to keep the leash loose. Basically you are following him!.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

More - I often feel just like you did when you wrote this. I am trying to train my two doodles to walk "close", one on each side of me. Some days are great and I feel like a great trainer with the smartest dogs in the world. Other days, by the time I get home, I am so frustrated I could just spit! Most days are just okay. I just keep trying for more good days, because my previous two dogs learned this from me and were a joy to walk for after the youngest was about three. I am certainly hoping for more like 18 months old with Tigger and 2 years with Roo. So just hang in there. When you finish these lessons, take a little break and then try a different trainer. I am so surprised that you are trying to do the "pop" with a flat collar. A really really good trainer will have a lot of tricks up their sleeve for when you hit a hard spot. I definitely hear you talking!

[Sandy]

Thanks for all the advice. The popping is just light jerks on the lead until you get the dog's attention. Toby is not really sensitive at all to the popping. :) You are right - some days are wonderful, and you feel like you've done amazing things, and other days, not so much. My noon hour walk with Toby was great! Imagine that.

[Sandy]

Thanks! Good idea, for sure. I had already decided that I would try standing still when he starts to pull today, so that was affirmed in the article. It could make for a very long walk though! I always have treats with me - I'll have to bring the really good ones. :) Maybe yesterday was just a blip in the radar, and today we'll be back to good walking!

[Sandy]

I know training sessions should be short - but if Toby doesn't get his longer walks I am in trouble at home! He needs to expend that energy, and we just can't get to the dog park every day. Therefore his training session has to be longer, because we aren't going to be back in 10 minutes! Ahhh....such is the life of a dog owner/trainer. :)