Hershey's Puppy Friend

[Erin]

I've been persusing the past discussions but haven't found anything comparable yet - just wanted some folks to weigh in with more experienced opinions....

 

My best friend and her husband recently adopted a chocolate lab puppy.  The pup is now almost 4 mos old, and they are really doing well with her training.  I'm pretty impressed with the pup generally, but she plays with Hershey very very rough.  I'm all about letting dogs do their thing and chasing each other around, but when do I or my friend step in to correct them? 

 

Hershey is pretty chill - wags her tail enough and play bows with the puppy, but it seems as if the puppy is starting to work on her last nerve.  She growls and kind of walk away, and the puppy chases her and the puppy (not spayed yet) tries to jump on top of her puts her paws around Hershey's neck and hold her down.  That seems like very dominant behavior to me, and neither my friends or I think its a good idea to reinforce such dominant behavior with such a little pup.  It seems like that may get her into trouble with a less tolerant older dog.

 

Currently my friend is pulling the puppy off and giving her a little time out when she gets too amped up.  That way Hershey gets a little break and generally just finds a comfy place to lay down till the puppy comes back out again.  Any other suggestions?  How long is too long to annoy my doodle with this pup?   They eventually just walk around and lay down for a bit and then the puppy starts up again....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The best possible thing that could happen would be for Hershey to become that "less tolerant older dog" for a few minutes and teach this pup a thing or two. And if you and your friend leave them to their own devices, eventually, she will revoke the puppy's "license to get away with murder" and harmony will reign. Hershey is capable of defending herself and letting this pup know when enough is enough.

If the puppy displays "dominant behavior" with humans, the humans should correct her. And if she gets carried away trying to dominate another dog, the dog should correct her. I would not step in unless there is any real danger to either dog, and it doesn't sound like there is any at all.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Sounds like the puppy may be on your last nerve, but not Hershey's.  Do not interfere, but it is never wise to leave a very young puppy and even the most tolerant of older dogs together alone.  Hershey can manage the puppy if she needs to. 

 

My 15 year old Storm would stick her head and neck behind the couch ( those were her tender parts - arthritis) but let my little Roo hassle her back end until I thought I would scream.  When Storm had had enough she would back out and lift her lip at Roo, usually not even any noise and walk to her bed.  Roo was even allowed to be in bed with her - IF he was perfectly quiet.  If he was not, she told him to leave in language he could understand.

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

I don't expect the older dog to train the puppy. I think if the person is alpha they should determine how the pack members (or visitors to the pack in this case) interact with each other. When Tara was a puppy she played with 2 adult dogs both smaller than her. One was very good at teaching Tara some boundaries and the other was terrified of Tara.  The terrified one just ran from Tara and of course the chase was on!! I mentioned this to the owner of the "runner" and she said her dog was having fun but I could see it was terrified!! As soon as I told Tara to "leave it" the poor little thing ran to his "mommy" shaking and wanting to be held. The owner would have let Tara chase the poor thing all night and I doubt that little thing would ever have stood up to Tara.

 

It is the same with the cat at our house. I trained Tara that the cat belonged to me and she treated the cat as I instructed her. 

 

In Tara's puppy class the trainer taught us that when 2 pups are playing and you think it may be getting to be too much for one of them to take hold of the more assertive pup and if the less assertive pup returns to play with it then they are fine. But if the less assertive pup does not return to the other pup for more play then it is too much for it. If Hershey is trying to walk away it sounds like it's too much.

 

Why should Hershey be put into the position to have to train your friend's puppy?  If Hershey is really not enjoying the playtime with the puppy than why should it continue? Isn't the point of playtime for BOTH dogs to have fun? Not for one to have fun and for the other to be mauled... 

 

Once Hershey has had "enough" I would suggest putting the puppy on a leash and practicing some training with it. It would be a good opportunity for your friend to practice training with "distractions". LOL  If you are not comfortable asking your friend to control her pup than maybe you could put Hershey in another room and tell your friend she has "had enough playtime for today" or something?

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

Personally, I think they will work it out. Fudge lets Vern get away with a lot and tolerates most of it, but she does something every now and then that makes Vern stop and quit. It is just a little growl or noise, but he stops and stands very still and quits doing what he was doing. It is their own dog language and both of them understand it. I think when Hershey has had enough, she is going to let the pup know. In the meantime, I would supervise closely and follow your instincts if you think things are getting out of hand.

[Erin]

Thanks for your replies folks.  @Karen - we have wished that Hershey would become that less tolerant dog!  She just seems to be either very submissive or VERY tolerant.  I think that things would be different if these dogs spent regular time together or lived together.  My best friend and I live 5 hours apart, so when they spend time together, it's ALOT of time, but then its months without seeing each other...    And my friend and I are close enough that we are ok with correcting each other's dogs when they are displaying behavior that we do not agree with...  (we'll see what happens when we have kids! ;o)  )

 

We are really trying to let the dogs work it out - and I think they are, because after about an hour or so they tend to collapse for a bit and take a breather.  I'm not worried that Hershey is going to hurt the puppy (Piper) but I just don't want to have my dog aggravated all evening!

 

They are always supervised, and i think the humans may be more annoyed with the scuffle than the dogs are...  They have a large living room and house for them to run around in.  Tomorrow night is a small get-together for New Years Eve, and the dogs will be together all night.  Brooke (my best friend) will be taking the puppy for a LONG walk right before hand, and so hopefully they'll get all their crazies out for awhile and then we'll see how it goes.   Most likely Piper will get a time-out in her crate at some point - and Hershey will get to relax in the spare bedroom at another point.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The home dog will usually have the advantage in these situations. Are they getting together mostly at your friend's house? That makes a big difference. Dogs are usually more assertive on their own turf than they are when they're in the other dog's space. I should have thought to ask that before. Hershey may be much more assertive if the puppy visits your house.

 

[Erin]

Very true Karen - hadn't really thought about it.  They are usually together at my friend's house....  Hopefully planning some outdoor dog park activities near here before tomorrow's festivities...

[Lesley, Wellington & Bingley]

 

Im on the 'step-in' side for this one. Whether it's a puppy that is being too rough with an older dog or visa versa. Only if the older dog is adept at putting the pup in his place will I let them 'get on with it'.

 

I would also not want my older dog to have to get stroppy with a young pup. If the pup takes notice of the older dogs signals in the early stages then fine. But if the pup keeps pushing and pushing then the older dog will eventually snap - which is the last thing it really wants to do.

 

The result may be that your older dog will get less and less tollerant of youngsters in general and may become very grumpy with young dogs - even the well-mannered ones.

 

I also wouldn't want a young pup to have to get rough with another dog, pup or adult. This would only teach the pup to be rough right from the beginning. This can be especially disasterous if the pup will grow into a BIG adult dog.

 

If I think it's getting out of hand on either side - I would step in and seperate them and do exactly as you have been doing.

[Jane, Rooney & Stuart]

Rooney's trainer told me that the dogs will work it out - if you step in then they aren't learning the dog language that allows them some control with other dogs such as how to send or get signals that mean "enough".  That given my Roo was attacked once by an aggressive dog.  But since this is normal puppy play with your dog I would let them have at it until you decide it is enough and then you remove your dog.  Unless the pup is biting - this is just how puppies play, show dominance, etc.  I think the puppy should not be made to feel that it is dong anything wrong. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'd just like to add one more thought.  I agree that the Doodles are just playing and Hershey will communicate to the puppy when he's just "had enough".  But, one thing my trainer taught me with my guy's play, is that what "YOU WANT" is also really important.  You get to provide the parameters of their play.....it's what YOU'RE comfortable with.  For example, I'm not comfortable with it when my guys are "humping", so I always stop that behavior as soon as I see it.  There's really nothing wrong with it from the perspective of the dogs....they "take turns" so it's really not dominance, but I just don't like it and "I make the rules".

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think it's really important that dogs learn how to communicate with other dogs, and thatb includes letting the other dogs know when their behavior is out of line. A lot of people don't realize that knowing how to approach another dog is one key to a dog's safety at places like dog parks, etc. If puppies are raised properly, with their littermates and their mother, the mother herself would be growling, snapping, and even shaking a puppy who became too rambunctious or who was bugging her. The littermates also learn from each other. We recently had a discussion about how puppies who are taken from their litters too early can lack buite inhibition and have problems socializing with other dogs.

We've heard a lot of stories here about someone's "friendly" puppy or young adult dog who ran up to another dog at a dog park or elsewhere and got bitten or snapped at. You usually hear that "Rover is just friendly and loves other dogs"; but in fact, Rover is a rude dog from the viewpoint of the other dogs. To us, it looks friendly. To the dog who's being approached head-on, it looks like rudeness, or worse. The other side of this is that a dog who doesn't know how to say "Back off" is in danger of becoming the kid who gets bullied at dog parks, day care, etc.

When a foster dog comes into a home where there are other dogs, it is expected that the newcomer will take a back seat to the home dogs. It is also expected that the home dogs will let the newcomer know the boundaries. This is to be encouraged. One of the worst things a foster can do if her own dog appropriately corrects the foster is to step in and stop the home dog; it teaches the lesson that this newcomer, who has not yet earned any status in the home, now has a higher rank in the pack than the home dog, and will actually encourage animosity and rivalry between the dogs.

I realize these examples don't exactly fit the situation Erin is discussing, but my point is that owners must let dogs relate to each other like dogs, and not like children on a playground. Interfering without having a clear understanding of the dynamics from a dog's point of view can do more harm than good.

[Erin]

The New Years Party went very well!  We brought Hershey over about an hour before the rest of the folks came - so by the time the house was full, both pups were tired and mostly laid around and crunched ice cubes together!  Every 30 minutes or so, Piper the Puppy would jump on Hershey and they'd wrestle for a little bit.  Several times, Piper yelped and laid down immediately and just looked at Hershey.  I think that's what we were going for :o)

My friend is figuring out how frustrating puppies can be, but I'm so proud of her and her husband, and how well they've trained this puppy in 2 months!