Opinions please - trainer comments

[Jennifer Tramell]

  My daughter is 11 yrs old and we just joined 4H.  They have a dog obedience class which is 7 wks followed by "graduation" and a dog show.  I thought this would be a great experience for both my daughter, Julianna, and goldendoodle Charlotte.  I believe that working with animals helps children learn self discipline, gentleness, effective communication, and many other traits that are valuable throughout life.  Charlotte is 8 months old and, whereas she is responsive to my commands, she views herself as "one of the kids" and doesn't neccessarily listen to others in the family.  A win-win, I thought.

I have never used a dog trainer before, never taken my dogs to training classes, always did the training myself with success.  I'm not saying that my dogs would win competition obedience contests but they are well mannered, responsive, obedient canine family members.  Last night was the 1st class meeting.  It was no dogs, just a chance to go over what training tools were needed, what would be covered in the class, etc. 

The first thing that got the fur up on the back of my neck was that we are supposed to use a pinch collar (even on a 4 lb poodle).  I am okay with a training/"choke chain" collar but I am a little uneasy about arming a bunch of kids with a pinch collar.  My training philosophy has always been to start with the gentlest method and move up if the dog does not respond.  The idea of sweet Charlotte being snapped with a pinch collar by an 11 yr old just bothers me. 

After I recovered and accepted the pinch collar idea, the trainer said that using a crate is one of the best training tools.  She recommends crating a dog for 2-4 hours prior to a training session.  Says this gives a dog "alone time" and puts the dog in an eager mental state for training.  She is training her corgi for competition obedience shows and he was crated for 4 hours prior to that days training session.  This just floors me......I would think a nice long walk to drain some energy and get the dog paying attention to the leash holder, but crating a puppy for hours?  We haven't had a crate since Charlotte was 3 months old - just didn't work with our situation.

Finally, the trainer made it clear that she did not want parents watching the classes.  This is 4H, a very family oriented organization.  The class is being held in a large arena with plenty of room for parents to sit on top rows and discreetly watch the class without being a distraction.  Charlotte is not Julianna's dog, she is a family dog.  I want to know if I approve of the training, and use the same techniques at home with both Charlotte and Webster.  I also want to see how Julianna and Charlotte interact and how Julianna handles instruction from the teacher.  The 4H agent tried to suggest that in the past parents have watched quietly from the stands and, if a particular parent is a distraction, they are asked to stay out of sight, but the trainer said "I don't want the parents here."  I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but this really bugs me!  This is MY daughter, MY dog, in a family friendly organization.  I am driving 45 minutes to attend this class and I am supposed to sit in the car? 

Anyway, has anyone heard of these training techniques?  The crate theory?  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas?  Thanks for at least letting me vent!

[Jennifer Tramell]

This is what my husband and I are thinking.  The agent seemed surprised that the trainer was instituting a "no parents" standard.  He suggested twice that parents stay until there was a distraction, at that point the distracting parent would be asked to leave or hide.  The trainer didn't like this idea.  I think this trainer is more "professional" and less "volunteer" and perhaps that is causing the conflict.

[Kim]

When I first read this, I was thinking "NO WAY," but the more I am sitting here thinking about it, I really think my 11 year old Son would do better without me being in the room.  He would be less worried about pleasing me.  He would also see that I trust him with the dog.  I have no fair opinion on training method, because I haven't given any particular training method enough time on my own dog.  I think if you have already paid for the class to try it once, and see how your Daughter likes it.  Ask if they have a waiting room, and explain that you traveled 45 minutes for this class.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

My biggest concern that I would have is the requirement that parents not be present for the training sessions.  I would not allow my 11 year old daughter to go through these classes without being present.

[Jennifer Tramell]

I want to make it clear that I'm truly not saying that this is a bad dog trainer.  However, I think there is a different mindset when doing competition obedience for show dogs and when doing basic training for family pets.  One of the questions she asked was "How many of these dogs are household pets?"  Excuse me?  This is a group of 4th-8th graders, do you think they are training outside kennel dogs?  This was when the "no parents" was brought up. 

 

This is a huge arena - actually an agricultural center used for horse shows and the county fair. I understand how sitting near the rail could be a distraction but there are many places to sit discreetly and observe without the children or dogs worrying.  This is our first 4H activity, it would be different if we had been involved previously.

[Pam and Ginger Snap]

My 11 year old boy just went through a training class with Ginger.  Ginger is 5 months now.  He did it by himself, while I was in Petsmart.  He was so proud of himself and I think it taught Ginger that, although my son plays with her, he is still higher up in the chain than she is.

[Ronna, Murphy & Wilson]

I say ditch the trainer and the class.  Parents can't watch?????  My eyebrows are raised on this one. 

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

In my opinion, I may agree that parents can be a distraction with some children, but I would certainly want the option to visit occasionally to observe, as you know your child best and have every right to be in the same place at the same time that she is.

 See if you can make an agreement to just a drop in for the last 20 min or so now and then. Especially if there are area's where you would be out of the way anyway.

 Yes, teachers don't want parents sitting through their classes, but I have always felt that I was free to arrange to come in to observe if I were uncomfortable or wanted to see what my child and dog were learning and help reinforce this training at home. And I have done so on many occassions with my ADD, learning disabled son. I am not at all an overbearing or overprotective person, so this seems a reasonable request to me.

As for the collar,that would be so over the top for my Bella, but probably would've done wonders for Murphy at that age, so maybe she will assess that once you start.

 

[Taylor & Huff]

The training collar is normal bet it didn't do much for Huff even when he was a puppy, so  don't wory about that. I was 9 or 10 (by the way this is Bryce) when we took Huff to training classes, and I walked him on that collar but it didn't make a difflence he still pulled. Iv never heard the crate method though we weren't allowed to feed Huff for a few hours before class so he would be very food motivated. 

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

Well...I know the collar thing is a BAD IDEA as first reactin to everyone. My husband insisted in on Chloe, the kennel club he trained at was a must! I said when Myla came around there would be no prong collar because she's so much smaller but the reality is it's the only way she doesn't break her tiny throat. If you take her on her regular collar,she's a nut head. I don't recall ever having it HURT her, they will squeal if it does! As far as the other stuff, I disagree and I would probably say no and have your daughter di it at a store or kennel club. Sounds weird to me. We were always told to go for a good walk before training.

Good luck with whatever your decision may be, how does your daughter feel about it?

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Prong collars can be a good tool if used correctly, and im sure she would teach the kids to use them correctly. HOWEVER, im of the philosophy of "if it aint broke dont fix it". I would try other collars first - a regular collar works fine for some dogs. Some need a training collar, some need a choke or pinch collar.

 

The crating time sounds excessive. And again, some dogs respond better to crating than others. I think crating is a great tool, but some dogs just absolutely hate it.

 

I would want to watch at least the first session

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

This is a very interesting and thought provoking situation. One of my doodles was trained to therapy dog certification and we were told to exercise and not feed before class. The only collar that was allowed was one with a buckle or clip. It was all by positive reinforcement and treats. When I got my second doodle and tried to walk them together, they both pulled on each other and on me. So I got pinch collars for both of them and all pulling stopped. I can take them, tethered together, anywhere now, so I have learned not to be automatically critical of the pinch collar. I used to think they were barbaric until I read that some DKers used them. It doesn't hurt the dogs, and I only had to make one correction and they knew I was in charge and pulling wasn't allowed (that didn't work with regular collars). The positives of having your daughter accomplish this training course are enormous. It does however, bother me that the parents are not allowed. I am wondering if parents interrupted or disturbed the trainer in the past and now there is a sweeping "no parents" rule. I will be interested to hear what you decide.

[Kyoko]

I thought may be the trainer thought that parents will be the distruction to the dogs rather than "Not allowed to watch". May be he/she need to clarify what he/she meant by that....