Doodle with seizures

[Tammy McIver]

Hi there everyone.  Our doodle Bella (5 years old) had a seizure last night. We have seen her have 3 others; so this is the 4th that we have witnessed.  They last about 2-3 minutes, we have it down now to acting very calm soothing her while it is happening. Once it is over she does take another 5 or so minutes to get up and walk; but can walk and doesn't bump into anything; nor does she urinate while having her seizure. We have been to the vet after panicing with her first one.  Blood test revealed nothing abnormal.  So, my concerns are that this last episode marks her 3rd since July; i feel I need another vet trip but i am so hesitant to put her on medicine for fear of the side effects.  She seems happy and healthy otherwise (loves walking, running, playing w friends, has good appetite; just overall seems fine) despite this happening to her.  I am (as i assume everyone here who joins a doodle kisses site!) so in love w my girl that i can't imagine anything happening to her.  I am a mom w 2 kids but she is my baby.    I guess one of my reasons for posting is to just get this out; but my real question is I know we all post how many times/ the severity of the seizures- but I am so curious if this happens when we are not with them. How do I know this isn't happening much more often, as we are not able to be with our pets 24/7.  I know there is no answer to this question; of course the vet said you may see evidence (puddles ect) but she doesn't do that nor does she act any different after; she is such a low key, quiet dog you wouldn't know she is there 1/2 the time.  Things we thought may cause this-1) tic medicine- i stopped during the winter and she has still had them and its been several months since i last applied; 2) lawn treatments- but lawn hasn't been treated in months either 3) over excitement /anxiety (one of them happened right when we came home from a vaca) but last nights just came right out of the blue as she was lying by the fire in a relaxed night at home.  

I'm so afraid to find out that is is a tumor or something worse.  Also - i hate to say this- but its true- I imagine neurologist would be very expensive as I assume treatment would also be. I know we all would spend what we have to for our pets but what if you just don't have thousands to spend on testing?

I know I am not asking any questions here but thank you for listening and sending positive thoughts our way....just a worried doodle mama sharing my thoughts....

[AndySharon BoomerShaynaMariner]

You mentioned tic medicine - what about heartworm medicine. 

I am sure you have read through the posts here. 

Don't be afraid of putting her on anti-seizure medication, the benefits far outweigh the any side effects. 

Most of the time there is no cause found for the seizures. 

Please keep us posted.

[Tammy McIver]

I have kept up w the heart worm med (heartguard) but it is the tic meds that really scare me as they go right into the blood i feel like i am poisoning her when i use it!  The last one i used was K9; and i only switched to that from front line because front line wasn't doing anything....the vet said most likely it isnt the med causing the seizures though....

From what i have read on this site many vets don't like to medicate unless they are happening much more frequent.  But it is obvious to me that something is wrong so my gut is now saying to do something....

[Dawn Ross]

My dog Pierson has only had his seizures when he is at rest. All knowable possible causes have been eliminated so it appears that his happen out of the blue as well.

Mathematically, would you say that you are around her for more than half the day (including nighttime)? So if you take into account the times when you know she's had a seizure, you can assume that perhaps she's had less than 4 when you weren't at home. So assume 7 total since July. That is about one per month average. If my dog Pierson had his seizures that often, I still don't think I'd want to put him on meds. My vet recommended meds only if it is more frequent than weekly and only if the seizures last more than 5 minutes. I realize there may be different veterinary opinions regarding this, so go by what your vet recommends.

[Tammy McIver]

I really am around her more than I am not; and she sleeps in our bed too so you are right I think; I am probably with her more than i think.  And when I am with her i always know where she is and whats she's up to for the most point.  I work 2 days a week and then out and about a bit during the days, but she is not home alone all day every day thats for sure.  

Is there anything that you do do for your pup (ie- special diet or that type of thing?) 

[Dawn Ross]

That's good. Then she's probably had fewer than one per month. I know it is devastating to watch, but if you've already had everything checked out by the vet then she's probably fine without meds.

I feed Pierson a high-quality brand of dog food with no corn, no by-products, and has no BHA, BHT, or ethoxquin preservatives. We don't treat our yard or use insecticides inside or outside the home. I've only used Fronline on him twice because we were concerned about fleas and ticks. He's never had a reaction, but I still only use it when I feel it is necessary. I still have to give him Heartgard because he is Australian Shepherd/Border Collie mix and the treatment to cure heartworms in these breeds can actually be deadly. I'd rather take the chance with his Heartgard meds than have him get heartworms. Luckily, I've noticed no connection with his Heartgard and his seizures.

Really, since the cause for his seizures is unknown there isn't much I can do. Thankfully, he bounces back quickly and goes on happily with his life as though nothing happened. This makes acceptance of his condition easier for me.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Dawn, I am sure you and your vets are familiar with Ivermectin intolerance in some of the herding breeds, including Australian Shepherds and Border Collies, but just in case, here is some info: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/announcements/ivermectin/index.asp

Most of the people I know who own these breeds or mixes use an alternative HW preventative. One of the effects of ivermectin toxicity is neurological issues. 

[Dawn Ross]

Thanks, Karen :)

Yes, I do seem to recall a conversation with my vet about this. I think we opted to stick with Heartgard for a number of reasons. Pierson has his annual check-up tomorrow and so will revisit the topic.

[John Scipione]

Tammy,

Everyone in this group has shared your worries.  That's why we are here, and thankful for those who created this group. 

You will find different opinions and experiences, so ultimately you will have decide for yourself what to do.

Personally, when my Dooley experienced 2 seizures in a month and third overall, our vet recommended medication.  Unfortunately, both Goldens and Poodles seem to be prone to seizures.  However, since we have started him on his phenobarb, about 3 years ago, he only has had one seizure.  After checking his level, which was low, his dosage was increased.  Otherwise he is a healthy and playful boy.

I come from a nursing background, taking care of adult patients.  Certainly not like those in our furry families.  Yet I will say that all medications/treatments have side effects.  So, I agree with  Andy&Sharon BoomerShaynaMariner.  The benefits can outweigh the side effects.  Other natural treatments may indeed work,  but unfortunately, as with humans, these have not been tested sufficiently.  You may never know what you are actually getting either.  For instance, red rice yeast is used by humans to lower cholesterol levels, but there is not any agency that measures quantity in any given supplement.

I am fortunate that we bring our boy to a good group of Vets, and I while I too was initially hesitant with meds, ultimately I relied on their expertise, and so far this particular treatment seems to be working well.

All the best to you and your pup,

John

[Anita - Thunder, Noodle, Sparky]

I am really thankful that my vet decided to treat Noodle's symptoms instead of sending us to a neurologist for more expensive testing. We did a multitude of tests at the CSU Veterinary School and I was thankful we were in Fort Collins when she had her worst seizure ever. However, they couldn't find the cause (we did a lot of heart testing, her seizures are truly odd) I believe tic medicine makes her seizures worse. Also, my vet told me Benadryl lowers the tolerance threshold too, so I have to be careful about giving it to her. Thank goodness she isn't my doodle with allergies. Look up the active ingredient in your tic medicine and make sure the side affect isn't seizures. One of the tic preventative meds has the active ingredient that causes seizures and one doesn't. I just cannot remember which is which. Thankfully we don't live in an area with tics because I really don't know what meds I would use. They scare me. Noodle has been on Potassium Bromide for 4 years and I am so thankful for it. Noodle couldn't go on a walk, play ball, or have a good quality life if she isn't on her medicine. (Her seizures are loss of leg control, but she is still pretty alert.)  I have her liver tested yearly, and I feel like we are giving her the happiest life we can. She can now go on short walks, she plays ball, but cools herself often in the pool and rests when she feels she needs to. Although I am certainly no expert, and I only know what works best for us. Do what you think in your heart is the right decision. 

[michele, puddy & milo]

I have read that having seizures predisposes them to more seizures - so with each seizure they are more likely to have another. That motivated me to move forward with pheno even though Milo had only had two seizures in an 8 month period. They were both grand mal seizures so I considered them to be fairly severe as he relieved himself and was very disoriented and sensitive afterwards. All testing came back normal. He did go on pheno and about 8 months after he had one very minor seizure, and now we've been seizure free for over a year. We do a blood test ($150) every 6 months  to check his levels and see that the pheno is at a theraputic level. I realize that the pheno could shorten his lifespan, but so could not being on the pheno. My hope of course is that we have continued success at our current level and he lives a looooong and full life. I am very nervous about monthly flea preventatives and luckily we don't really need HW meds in southern CA. Also, he really needs a dental and I have concerns about anesthesia. So, there is always something to worry about!