Puppy With Sensitive Tummy

[Jerry Kandel]

We finally got a brother for Bailey - his name is Kobe and is four months old. We have had him a few weeks shy of two months - and got him from a reputable breeder and from the same breeder where we got Bailey. Kobe has had continually loose stools - better described as a small mound of mush. We are feeding him Taste of the Wild Grain Free. He is not lethargic - he has doubled his weight in two months (10 lbs to 20 lbs) - but he rarely (read: almost never) has formed stools. We did a stool sample with our vet and it came back negative. Our breeder de-wormed him prior to our getting him. We are at a loss as to what to do to have him have regular hard formed stools. We don't know whether we should change foods (perhaps he is allergic to one of the ingredients in TOTW) - our breeder suggested getting Probiotic Max - she said that she has had good luck using that.  Is anyone familiar with Probiotic max?

Hope someone can help

Thanks

[Stephanie and Ragley]

I can see what you mean by the discussion getting "ugly and insulting". When I first joined DK I remember seeing a discussion go in a similar direction ANd thought it was strange to have such a "heated" discussion. But then I became a member of this community, received a LOT of help (and still do) and researched and educated myself even more. After integrating myself here on DK, I have realized that this is more than just an internet forum for strangers to share advice. Everyone on here truly cares about the outcome of treatment for one another's pets and for the sanity of all the owners! We are all wondering how Cally and Yarrow have recovered from their spay surgeries; we all think about and send prayer up for Allyson and Tacky as they battle his kidney issues; I know I think of Sadie and Coal the littermates often and wonder how Ashley maintains her sanity! There are a lot of people on here who care deeply and spend who knows how long researching and posting helpful information for us. When someone comes for help, gets advice, goes back to the original sources after being instructed that there is no true knowledge there, then comes back with new ideas, is given new info, etc. over and over, it becomes an extremely frustrating battle. We all just want what is best for Kobe, but after all that dancing around, the option to go with what we all strictly advised against is what was chosen. Can't you see how that might be a tad bit frustrating for those of us who have been worried about Kobe's fecal tests and GI issues?

[Kristen and Chewbacca (Chewy)]

No doubt it can be frustrating to spend time researching and thinking about a dog in need, and to not have your advice followed. This is the only group (food group) where I've seen it get ugly and insulting "check your reading level":-(. My feeling is, if you're frustrated with someone, you don't have to type it out--most people would think twice about sending an insulting e-mail at work. So why here?
Also, I'm a parent of 3 boys. I have given and received advice on a multitude of serious issues regarding children. I think I can say I have never insulted someone for listening to their pediatrician and not taking my advice. I may have been frustrated, though. I assume people don't come to the food group for advice and think they may have insults hurled at them for not following it. I certainly would hope that wouldn't happen to me.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Insults go both ways, Kristen. Everyone has feelings, and everyone deals with them differently. When you post in a public forum, you run the risk of getting responses you don't like. I am very proud of this group and the positive feedback it gets from the vast, vast majority of members; I am even more proud of all of the dogs we have helped here over the past 5 years. I don't intend to change a thing, and at my age, changing my personality because it rubs a few people the wrong way is not an option, lol.  What we do and the way we do it seems to be working for the majority of members, and most of them are grateful. But you cannot please everyone, and participation is voluntary. 

[Stephanie and Ragley]

I hate to prolong this further, but I have to point out, as Karen has noted over and over, that vets do not get formal nutritional training. They are not "dog food experts". In fact, they get biased nutritional training that often comes from the companies that they themselves promote and sell in their clinics. Though I appreciate the comparison you were trying to make, comparing medical advice on a child's condition is a totally different ballgame than asking a vet for dog food advice. Vets are NOT dog food nor dog nutrition experts. I have witnessed this in my own firsthand experiences and was glad that I was educated (by Karen and others in TFG) enough to listen to her advice and then let it go right out the other ear. I would have a sick and obese puppy right now rather than one in perfect health and perfect condition.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

And at the risk of seeming immodest, some of the newer members of this group may be interested in seeing the other side of the coin: 

http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/thank-you-to-a-very-specia...

[Shari Becker]

Kristen, I am fairly new to this community, and I have two young daughters myself, so I'm cautious about how I speak, too.

What I have come to experience here is a a group of people totally devoted to the well-being of their dogs. I was slightly blindsided by a puppy who has a whole allergy syndrome thing going on, and this is the only place I feel truly safe talking about how much I stress about how to care for her. I have dog-owning friends who just roll their eyes at me when I say, "my puppy can't eat that." Or, "my dog doesn't really tolerate most kibble well." 

Really, the advice and support here has been amazing. Karen goes above and beyond to help everyone who comes with a question. As I mentioned earlier, her reputation for her caring and knowledge is known throughout the doodle community. 

In my limited experience, this particular incident is out of character for this supportive community. There is a bias here, however, towards clean food. If you're not interested in that concept, and you're content with buying whatever's on the shelf, then this may not be the perfect fit for you. (And I say that without judgement, really. Lots of people don't care about GMOs or organic or local foods, and others really do.)

This particular discussion was frankly, bizarre. Everyone here was really worried about that little puppy, and in the end if felt like a huge waste of time. The folks here are truly just awesome -- but clearly not afraid to debate from time to time.

Good luck with your new puppy! 

[Kristen and Chewbacca (Chewy)]

Thank you Shari.  When I joined this group, I made sure to read the "Food group guidelines", so I am very aware of the types of food that are advocated here.  I feed my family high quality all natural food and I would only feed my new dog all natural as well--BTW, the breeder I have feeds her dogs Acana and Annamaet--one of the reasons I chose her was b/c she feeds her dogs high quality food.  I never said that there was anything wrong with the advice being given here--I think it is fabulous that there is a forum for high quality food here, and I hope to contribute in the future. I'm just shocked and bothered at the insults that were made earlier in the discussion.  I hope you're right in that this was a "bizarre" discussion--b/c I think we all agreed to the "Community Guidelines" when we joined DK.

[Jerry Kandel]

I was going to leave well enough alone but obviously Kristen saw some of the same things in some of your responses as I did. Let me make a few things clear: I did come into this site to be educated and to get opinions. I wasn't specifically asking any one person for that information - although as a group there was a lot thrown my way. I took that information and ran it by my vet and by my breeder (who ultimately brought her vet into it as well). There have been a few of you who seemed offended that I didn't follow the advice that was given to me. Isn't that my prerogative? To be honest, I don't care who I offend as long as in the end I get Kobe well. Just because one person on here says that vets don't know the first thing about dog food - doesn't mean that it's true or that applies to all vets.  I have no doubt that Karen knows a lot about dog food - but I have no idea who she is and what her education is - I do know my vet and I know her education (U.C. Davis) - it doesn't mean I don't appreciate everything that I learned on this site - it just means that in the end I went with what my vet suggested. As a side note, thus far the combination of the Marquis medicine, the Purina EN, the Probiotic Max and the mashed sweet potato - either one or the combination of everything has Kobe (for the first time) having stools that appear normal. Hopefully, after having him on this diet for a month or so, I can start deleting and then ultimately put him back on Orijen (or something similar).

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

You don't know who anyone is here, Jerry, or what their educational background is. So why ask for advice at all? And not just once, but repeatedly? Why not just follow the advice of the vet and breeder you trust in the first place, instead of wasting other people's time? What exactly did you hope to hear? A "lot was thrown at you" because you asked for it, and people were trying to help you. Nobody came looking for you. 

Just for future reference, Marion Nestle PhD Professor of Nutrition at NYU has documented that there is no nutritional curriculum in veterinary school, that vets receive no education on the topic other than that provided by the dog food companies, and that there is a conflict of interest in vets recommending and selling Rx foods, in several of her bestselling books on the subject. I highly recommend you read them yourself. That's the "one person" who is providing that information, it's not my idea or my opinion. I wouldn't dream of advising anyone about health issues based on an opinion, nor would I solicit the opinions of strangers whose educational background I didn't know, in an on-line forum on matters of health. You're the one who did that. 

I truly wish Kobe a long and happy life.