Why do so few people do raw for their dogs?

[Neptune]

OK I am making the switch to a raw food diet for my puppy / dog 15 month old labradoodle.  I have read a bit on raw and yes it makes total sense...  I don't feed my kids processed foods out of packages WHY would I feed my beloved puppy processed food?  My puppy seems to be in great health now..  15 months BUT he does itch and he scratches his ears.  I am hoping the raw diet will improve the itching.. and make him live longer - no cancer. 

     *  My vet is not a nutrition specialist but it does scare me that he is so against EVER feeding Raw or any Bones?  I was going to start my puppy on this when he first came home but my VET scared me to death and I stopped the investigation. 

     *  Will feeding raw make my puppy more aggressive?  I did read a comment in this discussion that her dog growled at the kids while eating raw?  I have 2 kids and I don't want an aggressive dog...  even when he is eating.  ((I currently only give him bones when he is sitting with a person and we take them away and give them back several times at a feeding session - BUT it is getting harder and harder to get the bone away!!)

     *  I am nervous about contamination to the people in the house...  I am starting with packaged raw food b/c it is easier - Instinct Raw - kibble (defrosts in minutes).  BUT my puppy is such a lover.. he is always giving kisses...?  Will he contaminate us??  He licks hands at every greeting.. and we call him a lunge licker.. b/c he always seems to sneak in a kiss right on your lips when you are not looking.. ?  I get he will not get sick from the raw food but we can?

     *  How do you do this when you TRAVEL?  We take our dog everywhere with us and currently just packed kibble?  Hmm I get why you want to mix raw with kibble.. b/c it slows down digestion but what about when you travel or have to leave them in a kennel overnight?

I am so glad I found this forum...  I don't know anyone who feeds raw to their dogs..  and I have so many questions... I started wrong also.. I fed him raw with his kibble last night.  I will switch today entirely.

thanks for your support and help!

Neptune. 

[Trudy Harlow]

The licking and itching should improve with raw feeding. Read my blog to see what it did for my GD.

1. Vets get their nutritional training from pet food companies. Incredible, but true. Enough said? Why on earth would they then support raw feeding? Get a copy of Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale, DVM. That will tell you everything you need. Easily available on Amazon.

2. Feeding raw will not make your dog more aggressive. However, the value of the food may be much higher to him, so keep that in mind. This is a training issue, not a food issue. You are doing the right thing by not tolerating food guarding. Keep it up. Research food guarding training techniques on the internet and you may get more ideas. Barring that, you may need a trainer. Keep in mind that you yourself as primary food source may also become considered a valuable resource, so if your pup is at this point developing guarding issues, that may involve you too. Consider that it may be he would have had this tendency anyway and it just happened to express itself at this point. My dog is passive on his food but guards me and his tennis balls. Go figure.

3. Do you feed your family meat? The contamination risk with your dog does not need to be any higher than with your family. Practice safe hygiene as you would regularly. I buy my dog meat from the grocery and have trained him to eat on a towel. I have a stack of old towels (you can buy dollar towels at Walmart or the Dollar Store if you need to) that I just cycle through and then wash with bleach and hot water weekly. If you live in a warm climate, you can feed him outdoors, but being sure to keep the area clean or you'll have bugs/ants/bees and vermin coming in.

4. We don't leave our dog in a kennel but get a dog sitter instead. But usually he travels with us. I pack frozen meat in a small cooler and take a piece out to thaw daily. If I don't open the cooler beyond that, the meat will stay pretty well frozen unless I'm traveling for more than a few days. If that's the case, I can find grocery stores along the way to buy meat for him. It's preferable to freeze it first, but sometimes that's not possible. If your doodle is small, you can opt to feed freeze-dried (e.g., Stella & Chewey's, Orijen patties) while you travel. Expensive, since our GD is 50 lbs., but you can do this short-term, which we have done. As you understand, never ever mix raw and kibble.

One resource which may be of use to you is the Raw Meaty Bones group on Yahoo. Check it out and join. I "lurked" there, reading posts and the files for a long time before I had the courage to switch to raw. Those folks were just wonderful to me when I switched, as you will read in my blog.

Happy to support you through this. Feel free to PM me!

Trudy

[Neptune]

Trudy,

Thanks for the support and feedback!  Yes I am going to switch today to 100% raw... versus the kibble idea.  BUT it does seem many others on this forum are having success with kibble one meal and raw the other meal?  Do you mean do not mix in one meal kibble and raw or DON'T mix the two even in separate meals?

Next question is very important also...  re: the guarding.  Yes on thanksgiving the puppy/dog 15 months growled at my daughter as she tried to pick him up off of my lap.  I realized then that my total adoration of my puppy could be producing a problem.  I researched for several days and made the following changes...  I make the puppy watch me hug my kids and I ignore him (previously if I was hugging my kids and the puppy joined in we always stopped and included him!)  I only now allow him on the furniture if he is invited.  I have my kids take turns feeding him.  I absolutely make him enter and leave rooms after me.  When we go out on a walk I leave first and make him wait patiently.  I  make him walk loose leash but do notice that I may not always be one step ahead?  He does not pull on leash but he may be one paw in front?  I do think he is guarding me...  and would like to learn more about how to prevent this?  He did growl again as my daughter tried to pick him up off of my lap.. and I immediately had him leave the couch and stayed cuddling her only while he waited on the ground. 

any resources for help on this would be appreciated...  I did mention it to my old dog trainer... and she said that was likely the poodle in the dog?  They typically choose ONE person to bond with???

Thank you!!

Neptune

[Trudy Harlow]

I am not a dog trainer. I don't believe that poodles bond only with one person, but I do know that puppies can get confused about their place in the family hierarchy.

I don't subscribe to the Cesar Milan concept of pack leader and entering rooms first and not letting the dog walk in front of you. Those may be valuable discipline lessons for the dog to learn, but I don't know if they have real value in addressing aggression. When my dog starts guarding me, I get up and move away. I also always use a firm "NO," not a pleading one. Check the tone of your voice and make sure you are being consistent and firm with him, not cajoling (from your note, I doubt you are, but only you will know). How old are your children? Can they (and your husband, if he's in the mix) also get firm NOs into their interactions with the dog?

I think you are doing everything right, but if it continues, I'd sure contact a trainer who specializes in family pet training in the home. I know you agree that aggression of any kind does not have a place in a family setting. This would be of far greater concern to me right now than any changes to his diet.

As far as mixing raw and kibble -- I just wouldn't do it. Too risky. But others do and the dogs survive, as do their families. I just don't see any reason for it. To me, it's like making a halfway decision. I think it should be raw. But some people just seem to think there's some value in all that processed food and can't give it up. Go figure!

[Helga, Nimbus, Sierra, Clooney]

It took me a while to be brave and take the plunge as well. But I got convinced by my agility trainer who breeds papillons and weans them on raw. They are extremely healthy and their teeth are so strong and beautiful. I started with chicken drumsticks and wings. At first I would hold the drumsticks so they could nibble on it. They got the idea pretty fast.
Since I buy mostly organic food for the humans in my family, I try to do the same for the canines. But mine are minis and therefore don't eat huge amounts. I read Lew Olson's book on raw feeding and found some facebook groups on raw feeding. Just like with other things some of these groups are very stubborn that their way is the only right way. I alternate between chicken, turkey, beef, pork and sometimes salmon, with organ meat in between, as well as some yogurt and eggs. I was also concerned about them kissing us. But I've been doing it for over 6 months now and had no problems.
Apparently there's salmonella in kibble as well and dogs just deal with it.
Their teeth look so much better now and they enjoy eating every single meal.
I recently house trained some puppies and they also preferred the raw food over the kibble.
Go for it! Your dog will thank you!
For traveling and for emergencies (like my daughter having to feed them, lol) I have a supply of Stella and Chewys patties in my freezer that can be easily defrosted. I invested in a small fridge that I keep in the laundry room so that open packages of meat don't have to be in our main fridge. That way you can defrost previously frozen food for them and keep larger pieces that they can work on several meals in a row.
I live in Southern California, so I feed them outside.

[Shari Becker]

Hi there,

So we feet mostly commercially bought raw. We do frozen when we are at home and we do freeze dried when we travel. I know lots of folks on this board get meat from the grocery store or a hunter, but so far, my shopping sprees have left me confused and not convinced I'm going to save any money. (I think if you feed chicken it can be much cheaper, but Lexi seems to get itchy after eating chicken, and the other meats are quite pricey in my 'hood.) I'm experimenting with little bits of chicken now, but Lexi is so itchy in the winter that I can't tell what is causing what. 

I have kids - not toddlers - but kids, and we have never had any issues with getting sick. I do recommend the kids stay away from dog licks right after eating though. (We're talking within ten minutes). Mostly I use metal dog food bowls, which I just put in the dishwasher. I treat all her food like I would any other raw meat, and we've all been 100% fine. I do wipe up the floor if she's had raw poultry and dripped juices everywhere. No one in my house is licking the floor, so I don't worry too much. We have stopped eating food that falls on the floor now that we feed raw, though. The rule is if it falls on the floor, and it can't be washed, it's trash.

As for growling ... I think that is a dog's way of telling your kids to stay back. It's a good opportunity to train your kids as well as your dog. Kids should not go near dogs when they are eating or sleeping, but you don't want your dog resource guarding either. Our dog has food issues, and we had to work with the trainer to figure those out, too. What we found was that when we kept Lexi in the kitchen for most of the day, she started treating the whole room like her lair. She still is very protective of a high value treat.  I think sometimes with kids, too, dogs view them as their equal. My dog believes my 4th grader is her litter mate (we're working on this right now). Long story short, I wouldn't worry so much about the growling, but you don't want it to escalate into snapping. We hired a great trainer who ultimately trained us about how to be dog owners, and it was very helpful.

Some raw feeders do feed raw at one meal and kibble at another. I wouldn't mix in one meal. Half raw is better than no raw. I just tried to experiment with a super high quality, low ingredient kibble, and within four days Lexi was playing with her ear, and it is now totally gunky. I think for many of these sensitive dogs, its not the ingredients in kibble so much as the mold, the invisible growths we can't see. Because Lexi gets itchy and yeasty no matter what kibble we give her. 

I have heard from one vet that doodles are just itchy, and that definitely seems to be the case with Lexi. My next investment is a humidifier because I'm thinking the heat may be contributing ... 

[Trudy Harlow]

Yep, they are generally itchy -- which stands to reason since all of their parent breeds are prone to allergies. Just a question for you, Shari -- are you feeding raw eggs and fish oil? Both can help with the itchiness (unless she's allergic to eggs, too) by being good for their skin.

Please don't think we spend a lot on food for our dog. My husband and I are both retired and on fixed incomes, and we live in the Washington, DC metro area, which has relatively high food (and every other kind of) prices. We are just careful to shop the sales and buy in bulk. We do have a separate freezer, which I believe is pretty much necessary for this diet. The only thing I "splurge" on is liver, which I get organic.

[Neptune]

thank you for your thoughtful responses!!

Neptune...

[Neptune]

Shari,

thank you !  YES great point.. WE used to use the 5 second rule when items fell on the floor.. I am now going to totally share with the family if anything drops wash or toss.  Our guys is such a licker..  OK I am going to trust that all the peoples on these forums have been doing this for years and not getting sick.  I wish I had a vet who supported this.. 

thanks!

[Corinn Laitre]

First of all, congrats on taking the raw food leap!!

**It can be very overwhelming when you start raw feeding especially when you dont have the support and guidance of friends and vets, but I can assure you, it's worth it! The vet put my bichon yorkie on 10 different "vet diets"over 2yrs to help with his constant vomiting and occasional seizures but nothing worked.  I decided to try RAW since I'd been through every other kibble on the market and he has NOT been sick or had a seizure in the 3yrs he's been on raw! Hurray!! 

**Our GD pup started on raw the day we got him and he's a very healthy and happy dog.  Neither of them have ever showed resource guarding. They dont protect their food, toys or people.  The guarding behaviour you're seeing is a symptom of bigger issue- your dog doesn't know his place in the family- so i'm very happy to hear that you've taken steps to correct the misunderstanding : ) Blaming the poodle in him for the behaviour is concerning coming from a trainer who should know better??

**I wouldn't be overly concerned about the raw aspect of their food. Like most things common sense will keep you safe.  Handle the food like any other raw meat protect- wash hands, dont ingest, wipe down surfaces- Tada! lol some people clean their face and wash their paws too (its depends on your preference, but my dogs constantly run around at the park, drink nasty water and clean themselves and i haven't been ill from any of that yet even though i dont scrub them down after outings or brush their teeth after drink river water and after all the kisses and cuddles haven't caught anything nasty ;)

**we travel with our dogs all the time and just freeze the food and bring a cooler, or for longer trips we pack some freeze dried food as well, and then pick up things at the grocery store as we need them.  It depends what kind of traveling you do, and for how long.

**Ask lots of questions and we'll all help you as best we can!! :) Cheers

[Trudy Harlow]

Excellent! Great advice, Corinn!

[Lynda Kamrath]

This has been a concern of mine for a long time.  If our medical doctors get no training in nutrition, why should the vets get any more?  My first labradoodle died of liver failure at the age of 7 (after two surgeries).  At the age of 5, he had jaundice and they did his first surgery and told me then that he could not eat processed food because of liver damage.  So, I cooked for him for two years and fed him raw also.  Then my second doodle, a phantom goldendoodle, died of cancer at the age of 8.  He ate mostly high-end dried dog food.  But, all my dogs love raw bones and raw vegetables.  I get big beef bones cut into 2-3 inch slices and then put in my freezer.  I take out one for each dog and give it to them outside on their dog beds.  They clean those bones of every bit of meat, marrow, and joints.  I know the marrow is great for them.  I like bone broth and use it to cook our rice, quinoa, and other grains.  So, it is a great treat, but I also use it to cook their Happy Dog dried food.  It was something I discovered with Hondo and it is made with bulgar and vegetables.  You can add meat when cooking, but I usually don't.  I make a batch of it every week and put a couple tablespoons of it in their dry food for each feeding.  They all love it.

I surely understand that the dry food is boring for our pets, but it is supposed to contain everything they need for a healthy diet.  But then look at our own food.  It is full of chemicals and salt and sugars of all types.  I grow much of my own food and eat organic, but even that is contaminated by chemicals from the oil industry.  It is a big issue for me as we live in an agricultural area that grows food for much of the nation.  With fossil fuel extraction and GMOs, our food supply is definitely contaminated, and there is NO REASON to believe that pet food is any better.  I guess I should get off my soap box, but this is a big issue for me.

Travel?  Do what is most convenient for you, but be aware of what is available to keep your dog healthy and happy.  My dogs are not as particular as to what they eat as I am, but they sure come running when I open the cupboard with their food in it or the refrigerator.  They sure know the Happy Dog container, the treat container, and the frozen bones.  And, oh yes, I also give then bully sticks on a regular basis.  Each stick is good for about three chews of about 15-20 minutes each.  They are happy, healthy dogs and I want them to live long lives.