What drives my Doodle???

[Jennifer Tramell]

So I'm feeling a little lost.....I'm an experienced dog owner with a reputation for having "a way" with animals. My dogs have all been well trained with excellent manners. We have recently become a 1 dog family - we lost both our 9 1/2 yr old Dixie and 15 1/2 yr old Cody this past month. Webster is now 8 months old and I am realizing that his training is lacking (I think he just followed the lead of the other dogs).
Here's my dilemma: I don't know what reward system works best for Webster! Treats are okay - if they are too good he gets excited and totally loses focus on the training. He likes toys but, no biggie. He wants to please but I don't know if that's what "drives" him. Webster is mild mannered and easy going. He is a "good" dog and tries to do what we want him to do, the problem is that he doesn't realize that a command is a command and he has to do it NOW. Webster is also sensitive and too harsh of a reprimand causes him to 'shut down', any scolding has to be balanced with praise.

Does anyone have an idea on how I can identify what reward system will be most effective with my boy? I think if I can find this key then this training tune-up will be a great success. Thanks for any suggestions!

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I am lucky that Peri is food motivated. We click and treat when she completes a command (I do like the clicker method). Our obedience trainer was telling us that sometimes it is hard to find a food that motivates. She said some of her clients had to use goat cheese to motivate. Others used dried chicken skin (sorry, gross!). Just throwing some ideas out there. We use a combo of clicker, then tons of "Good girls!", then a high-value treat. String cheese works for Peri. She will do anything!

[Adina P]

I look at this differently than what reward is best...and I'm kind of taking this on a tangent to address the "shutting down" more than an answer to your real question.

This is MY paraphrase of a response I got from someone who I consider excellent at training when discussing soft dogs, dogs that shut down, etc. We actually both prefer a more traditional approach to training...in a way it's "Old school" and no treats, toys, games, etc are used in the type of training we've chosen. It's essentially just action-->consequence based .. sorta....

Anyway, she trained a pretty soft pit bull that she rescued (not to keep really). This dog had major separation anxiety, crumbled easily under pressure, etc. She didn't think she could live with this dog but decided it was only fair to train it so that she COUDLD rehome it. It was the first dog she trained and she did an amazing job.

Moving on... she says that many people make the mistake with 'soft' dogs to be too 'Nice' because the dog is soft and sensitive and appears to "shut down." Owners will muddy the waters by: giving inconsistent consequences, nag, threaten, etc. This only makes matters worse. 1) the dog doesn't get trained and 2) the dog becomes more unreliable and exhibits more shut down behaviors because it's not sure of anything.

However, 'reprimanding' during obedience isn't useful. This chick and I both train with 'old school' tools like the choke chain. BUT...the key to the training we do (gotta giggle at 'key' becuase I'm nowhere near the caliber of trainer she is!) is that it's NOT personal. It's never a verbal, personal reprimand. The goal is always the same level of correction each time (obviously milder for soft dogs--think goldilocks...not too hard, not too soft...juuuust right!). My personal opinion is that I don't believe in verbal reprimands for obedience things .. in theory. In theory because I sometimes fail and shout out commands when I'm being lazy. Bad. But reprimanding is personal...the dog then acts submissive or unsure. Not the end result you want.

She thinks these types of soft dogs, who might lack some confidence in their ability to do things correctly, do BETTER with cut and dry/black-and-white, utterly consistent, no-nonsense handling. More confident, hard dogs are better able to maintain confidence in the face of inconsistency or things that don't quite make sense. Funny enough she was working this dog on the "down" command trying to perfect it and and found that if she leaned over even slightly so the dog MIGHT mistake her body posture for dominant/domineering or intimidating the dog would plop down QUICKLY...but was a bit resistant if she just stood calmly, back straight and uttered the command verbally, calmly. She did NOT want a submissive response...she wanted a confident response from her dog. So she refused to give in and lean over the dog. Instead she simply stood tall, calm, said the command in a normal voice and was UBER consistent with her leash correction each time when the dog failed to go into a down. It took A LOT of repetitions that day but the dog finally 'got it' and started to respond with confidence rather than submission. THIS I think was quite telling. Whereas most people will jump to the conclusion that "oh no...my dog is shutting down...I'm obviously using too harsh a method!" She had the intuition to realize...NOPE. The dog needed to know black/white and that it wasn't personal.

It's also critical that such a soft dog is well prepared for what you demand of it. If the dog knows commands but hasn't been yet challenged at the level of the current distraction...let's say it's several levels above what the dog is used to...then the challenge may not be fair. You want the dog ready for the level of distraction, for the level of responsibility.

But once the dog is ready, tentative handling, repeated commands, "help" by cueing, etc...only makes things worse. Dogs that are less confident or soft MUST have the ability to predict and control what happens to them. They respond very well to step-by-step, predictable, black-and-white training methods:

-- "This behavior will ALWAYS earn a correction which always has THIS quality"
-- "THAT behavior ALWAYS earns praise/comfort that has THIS quality."

They are perfectly able to handle corrections as long as the correction is fair, predictable, controllable by their actions. "I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, and as long as I do it, everything is fine! But if I don't do it, I know that I will get the same consequence every time."

"And obviously praise is veeeeeeery important with these dogs. You cannot skimp them on the praise and recognition when they finally push past themselves and respond correctly."

"And then you need to refuse to resort to threatening/dominant body posture, raised voices, when you give those commands--but being ready to enforce the command immediately and without emotion."

Just my thoughts (mixed with this trainer's who I highly respect) on why 'shut down' may not be exactly what's happening. Could be confused. Could be trying to be wimpy because it would rather do something else and wants to appease you and say "um...do we HAVE to do this right now? I'd rather just not."

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think my trainer went to the same "school of dog training". She is also a huge believer in black and white clarity. The first few times with her I was also concerned that Guinness was "shutting down". She demonstrated to me that he truly understood the command, he was just choosing not to do it at that moment. Once I was able to get beyond that, it only took two more lessons to teach a reliable sit, down, come, and stay. We go through 15 minutes of those commands every day, and he doesn't even have a thought of not doing them. I can now leave the room for up to five minutes and he won't break his stay. It's become total habit. I don't need the choke collar or lead anymore unless I'm around a lot of distractions. Then it's a challenge if I don't have him on a choke collar to give him immediate corrections, but I now have no doubt that we'll get there even in those situations. He does get a reward at the end of the 15 minutes, but not after each command. That works best for him....otherwise, he tends to be focused more on the treats than me. I know all dogs are different, and there are so many different training methods, but it struck me how much alike our two trainers are.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Hi - Like you I lost both of my older dogs within a few months of each other. Then I got Roo and 8 months later Tigger. First, I think you may feel a little like I did. I have always had dogs and when I was younger, horses. I "knew" how to do it. But - it had been awhile since I had had a puppy and I think at first because of the whole "Doodles are so smart" thing and having just had two older well trained dogs I think I overexpected a little both from myself and from my puppies. Doodles are puppies first and doodles second. If you have had success with other dogs, just ease up a little on yourself, it's going to be better than fine, it's going to wonderful. Roo is now over two and Tigger is 18 months. Are they perfect - no, but they are darn good and more to come.

Secondly I am "old school" ( and LOL just plain old). I don't think there is any replacement for leash work. I prefer a prong collar for a lot of reasons. Just patience, repetition, and very black and white. Command, response, = good dog. Command , slow or no response ( assuming of course the command is known), correction, no talk. The correction can be mild for a soft dog. However, remember, the "soft dog" is going to be a teenager sometime soon and command= response. Tigger is my so called soft dog - in a human you might call it passive resistance.

In addition to leash training, this "old lady" has learned a new trick. Clicker training! and I love it. I have always trained tricks, etc with treats and no leash and clickers are awesome because you can train soooo very much faster. The clicker lets you "click" = reward the exact instant that the desired behavior is started.

Lastly, don't worry about the perfect reward - praise or treats or some of each. You already know the secret to training. You have done it before. Teach the behavior, ask for the behavior, and reward the behavior. Webster will learn to love the reward you offer, either praise or treats. Trust yourself - doodles are really cool dogs, but an 8 month puppy is an 8 month puppy. When Webster gets excited over treats, stay calm only a sit earns a treat. He can dance and wiggle and run around like his tail is on fire all he wants you will still be standing there waiting for him to come and sit for his treat. And don't forget to break out the leash. Join an obedience class if it helps motivate you. Old dogs spoil you, but puppies make you laugh. Enjoy!

[Julie B.]

With all due respect I couldn't disagree more with this discussion about "traditional training". Please go to this link and read about the advantages of positive training for your dog.
http://www.dogscouts.org/Help_your_dog_choose.html
I used to be a traditional trainer with choke collars and negative reinforcement but I have used all positive training methods on my latest dog and the results are amazing. The bottom line is you want to create a situation where your dog is looking for that behavior that gets rewarded (whether it is food, play or praise) rather than avoiding getting punished. Positive training becomes a way of life... you are always training your dog because you are looking for behaviors that you want to reinforce. As an example, Luah and I walk every day and she knows when we get the expando leash out she can "walk on" meaning she isn't expected to heel. Many times on these walks she will purposely come back to the heel position and look up at me and when she does this I either give her great praise or if I have treats in my pocket she gets one. It is an act of her choice because she has learned that being in the heel position gets her good things. I could bore you with lots of examples but please consider positive training methods before you start snapping the choke collar.

[Adina P]

Julie totally cool to prefer/believe in positive reward training only. If I wasn't able to do what I do, I'd probably use clicker training as I think that is the best form of positive training...makes things quite simple for dogs to learn and understand precisely what is wanted. We even had an excellent clicker training program many followed in our Spring Training group.

My point was not to promote 'my way' of training or promote choke chain in training Webster, but merely to point out my thoughts on dogs shutting down---it's not always because of the tools used in training but may be due to lack of clarity and consistency. AND that verbal reprimands or dominance in obedience training really don't help because making things personal in that way can really promote submissive response rather than confident responses.

[Lorraine Bromley]

I had a dog that responded very well to just being rubbed behind the ears and holding and rubbing her neck and muzzle well telling them good dog, what a good girl pouring loving praise over her in exagerated high pitch as excitement when she did well. Nothing if she didn't. Just repetition. Now at 16 all she needs is an ear rub to know she did good. Not all the hoopla and exageration a young dog in training needed. I don't like the use of choke chains, pronged collars ect. Just a good lead and whatever motivates them constantly. Clicker training is great also, then reward with what you find motivates him as well.

[Jennifer Tramell]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I guess I'm a mix between "old school" and "new? school". I like to mix some reward with the training but definitely use "action - consequence". Maybe this sounds confusing but it has always worked well in the past (dogs, horses, and alpacas but didn't work with my uncle's bull - Ha!).

I try to customize my training based on the personality of the dog. My golden/collie mix never needed a choke collar, he enjoyed a food reward but it was not neccessary for his immediate and reliable obedience for over 13 yrs (until he went deaf and somewhat blind). My shep mix was very smart but sometimes thought she needed to control the situation. I did use a choke collar short term with her to better communicate what I wanted. Dixie wanted to please and a food reward did nothing for her motivation. She was very easy to train and learned much of her training from watching Cody obey.

I guess I'm still learning Webster's personality - understanding what motivates him will help me customize his training. Our biggest problem is that he gets VERY excited when around other dogs and he forgets ALL his manners and training. We can do the "sit, stay, come, down" drill at home with great results, but, when we get around some of his doggy friends - yikes. My thought was that if I can determine what his 'motivator' is then I can make training more enjoyable and he may focus on me more when there are additional distractions. Sometimes during training time he seems like a bored teenager "sit, uh-huh, sure I can sit........stay, whatever, I don't have anything else to do...........come, sounds like a good idea...........down, okay - I'm kind of tired anyway......"

I'd sure appreciate any suggestions on how I can identify my bored teenager's motivator :-) Any additional training thoughts are great also - I'm currently proccessing everyone's suggestions and will be outputting an improved training program. My husband said recently that Webster needs to be very well trained. He said "Look at him, he's a mess! He doesn't have the "looks" so he needs to show off his brains!" (I know he's cute but remember that we are used to the classic lines of a golden retriever and a german shepherd. My those standards, Webster IS a mess!

)

[Adina P]

Webster IS adorable and I totally agree with Jane's assessment about levels of distraction. Sometimes to US something isn't that much more distracting but ultimately the dog let's us know when something IS too distracting. The "boring" setting of home makes responding to cues/commands quite easy for Webster. But going from that to meeting ANOTHER DOG (woohooo...another dog! Gotta smell his butt, gotta smell his butt and PLAY!!!) is like going from 0 to 60 mph in 2.5 seconds ;-) Between the 0 to 60 there are lots of levels...some obvious, some subtle and it takes some time to really hone in on when Webster needs to step back.

Personally, if it were me and my dog I wouldn't reward with something high energy like play right away. I'd work that sit stay for a few weeks until my dog could be extremely calm around his doggy friends (doggy friends on leash and later doggy friends off leash) and not be on the edge of his seat ready to run off with them. I want him to accept that while on leash...there is ALWAYS calm expected. This won't happen with a few practice sessions...it will take time with a fun loving, excitable doggy like Webster.

I wrote out my plan for how I worked Rosco to get reliable sit stays around new people in the Doodle Whisperer's group. I'm gonna go hunt for it and copy it here. The principle of gradual increase of distraction is what I'm going for...not necessarily THOSE specific steps..

[Adina P]

Here it is in all its amateur, long windedness. it is LOOOOONG!

Okay here is my plan for teaching a dog to sit stay for greetings. NOTE this is not super method specific (you could probably do it with treats as reward too, although I did it using corrections and praise). It's more the set up for it.

A dog that can sit and STAY on command, reliably, can NOT jump on people while in a sit stay. It is utterly incompatible. It's like trying to keep the door wide open and dead bolted shut. Two incompatible scenarios. So by working toward a SOLID sit stay as the goal (rather than a negative like "not jumping" or "not running off" or "not rushing to the door") the things you do not want will fall into place. So if your dog can NOT sit and stay in position when someone pets him/her, then that's not a jumping issue...that's a "doggy needs more time in obedience training" issue.

I had it a bit easier with Rosco as he wasn't really a jumper to begin with. BUT that doesn't mean he could hold a sit stay when people reached over to pet him. No way...he would get up and rush over and maybe half hop up and bounce around and invade their 'bubble'. I couldn't just walk over to where other dogs were and have him be calm and controlled.

BUT the pinnacle of our training came when I could heel him to a doggy play area (not quite a dog park per se) and he could hold a sit stay by my side (wasn't quite ready to do so with me at a distance) while another dog rushed over to him and sniffed him all over. Since then we've slacked some...but I think most anyone else can get there too with a lot of hard work.

First, you need to be pretty darn sure your dog understands 'sit stay' and can do it with YOU as a distraction and in normal household scenarios. Practice lots. Can you dance around your dog while your dog is in a sit stay? Can you leave the room for 30 seconds and return to a dog STILL in a sit stay? Can he hold the stay for 1-3 minutes with you near or far? Your dog's stay needs to be pretty strong outside of challenging situations (at home, in parks, and other places that are semi easy) before you can expect your dog to manage in the super tempting and exciting moments. So assuming this is in place...here's how we did it:

(You'll need a helper: stranger, friend...any human that normally would get your dog very excited. We did this at first in the middle of a big soccer field that wasn't at the moment being used for soccer and got lucky that someone wanted to pet Rosco and I recruited him for help).
1) In heel position we walk for a few steps and come to a stop (where Rosco sits automatically) and I give him the verbal and hand command for "stay." I'm RIGHT next to him, he's on leash, I'm ready to correct in a split second and ready to praise as well...it's Rosco's choice. (you don't have to heel into position, that's just how we did it).

2) With Rosco in a sit stay, I had the helper walk toward us, from the side (less intimidating) and stop about 6 feet away...parallel to Rosco...and facing the same direction Rosco was facing. Not looking at him or talking to him. Just standing there. Before I think Rosco's been overly challenged (don't make him sit stay forever) I praise him for holding his stay and heel away a short distance. If he broke his stay, he'd be corrected back into place, I'd wait 10 more seconds so he'd have a chance to get it right and then praise. ALWAYS give the dog a chance to get it right/be correct. Sometimes that might mean realizing you've set him up in a situation that is way too hard...make it easier then.

3) This was repeated the exact same way 1-2 times if he succeeded the first time...just to give him a taste of success/right behavior. If he failed a bit...I'd repeat (possibly making it slightly easier, but you have to be the judge of this) a bit more often to give him more opportunities to succeed and receive praise and clarity on the issue.

4) After I thought he 'understood' the demands so far...I'd have the person come closer for another few repetitions. It's a judgement call...let's say 4-5 feet away. Same scenario exactly except 1-2 feet closer. No eye contact or tempting of the dog. Then same repetition schedule based on the dog's response. Each time praising and then giving the dog a 'break' by walking/heeling away before trying it again. I might even extend the duration of the stays if the person's distance is easy so far...stretching the dog's understanding a bit. Perhaps even moving myself farther away from Rosco. Again, play it by ear, and challenge, but don't push too hard to make it impossible. Dogs learn from mistakes and from getting it 'right." But if the ratio of mistakes is too high and the dog has little success it is confusing the dog will give up trying to get it right because to him it doesn't seem to matter he always fails. So work him to make the ratio of success to failure be higher.

5) Okay...so the helper works his way closer and closer until he's about 2 feet away...at this point if the dog does well, I'd have the helper look at the dog for a few seconds and then walk away.

So far the level of increase in distraction has been relatively gradual. But when you start bringing in 2 ft or less proximity and start adding things like eye contact, maybe even a word...the level of difficulty increases big time and randomly. So you have to be SUPER careful and SUPER attentive to your dog so that you move slow enough yet fast enough. You might even stop at #5 and take a break for the day and work on other things. Come back the next day and start at #4 and spend more time working variations on the themes above.

If you can get to the person standing RIGHT next to the dog (within 6 inches) ... see if you can have the person move forward or backward. Or do a semi circle around the dog. Or ... stand in front of the dog or in back of the dog. Maybe walk by within inches (moving from behind forward) ever-so-casually touch the dog on the head or back while he walks away.

In other words...don't go from helper standing like a statue 1-2 feet away to helper bouncing over and petting up a storm and cooing to your dog. That will be just a huge overload.

So the point of my rambling is... break down the progression of steps in your mind from where your dog is NOW and what it can tolerate NOW to what you want your dog to be able to do as a final goal. Break down the steps and break them down more...work through them gradually with a few kind helpers (and do use different people when you practice, not just the same person over and over or else your dog won't generalize the task). Try to think of aspects of the excitement as separate things:

-- person in the same 6 foot radius
-- person walking toward dog
-- person standing near dog
-- person looking at dog
-- person saying something to you or dog
-- person reaching for dog
-- person touching dog
-- person standing in front of dog
-- Mom right next to dog while all this is happening
-- Mom a foot or so away...two feet away...far away
-- Other things going on
-- doorbell ringing
-- knocking on door

All of these add up to a HUGE blow up of excitement. Doggy needs to learn he CAN survive the culmination of events, but he needs to learn it by breaking it down into little parts that gradually are pieced together in easy to understand moments. That will make it easier for the dog...but I admit takes a LOT of time and patience and really requires you setting things up for training rather than winging it on the spur of the moment (at least at first). Thule is my project that I only occasionally practice with because I've gotten lazy. The only reason you never hear me complaining about her jumping is because I KNOW what I need to do precisely...it just takes time to plan and complete =)

Hope that was more helpful than confusing!!!

[Jennifer Tramell]

"woohooo...another dog! Gotta smell his butt, gotta smell his butt and PLAY!!!)" - so true - LOVE IT!

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

wow - lots of long posts here, full of great advice im sure (sorry I dont have the time to read them all right now, ill come back later). I just wanted to put in my 2 cents :)

When we first got Cooper I read Puppies for Dummies (which I loved) then moved onto Dog Training for Dummies. I dont love this one as much, but it still has lots of good advice in it. Theres a section about drives (prey, pack, fight, flight) with a little check list of behaviours which helps you determine what drives your dog. I have found it to be spot on with Cooper. Worth buying it, or getting it from the library. Theres also a test in the Puppies for Dummies book which helps you determine your puppies temperament. Ideal for those choosing a puppy or who have just got one, or who has a confusing dog lol

it may help :)